Posts by Sanchy

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

A Believer: spiritual temple—the arrangement for pure worship.

What the WT actually says and I quoted above from the Insight book:

The inspired letter to the Hebrews states that in this spiritual temple the Most Holy is “heaven itself,” the area where the person of God is.

This most "Most Holy" is the "naos" that John says the Great Crowd is located in. There is no way around it A Believer. The evidence points to them being a heavenly class.

A Believer: Jehovah’s people on earth worship him in the earthly courtyards of his great spiritual temple

As stated previously, this is impossible, since "naos" did not include the courtyard of the temple. WT attempts to use this fabricated and incorrect logic to make their interpretation fit scripture.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

Sanchy their is no temple in heaven.

A Believer, the literal temple constructed here on Earth by Solomon was a represenation of the great spiritual temple of jehovah's habitat in the spiritual realm. Here's what even WT's Insight book has to say about it under the Cat "Temple":

Jehovah’s Great Spiritual Temple. The tabernacle constructed by Moses and the temples built by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod were only typical, or pictorial. This was shown by the apostle Paul when he wrote that the tabernacle, the basic features of which were included in the later temples, was “a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things.” (Heb 8:1-5; see also 1Ki 8:27; Isa 66:1; Ac 7:48; 17:24.) The Christian Greek Scriptures disclose the reality represented by the type. These Scriptures show that the tabernacle and the temples built by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod, along with their features, represented a greater, spiritual temple of Jehovah, “the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man.” (Heb 8:2) As revealed by its various features, that spiritual temple is the arrangement for approaching Jehovah in worship on the basis of the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ.—Heb 9:2-10, 23.
The inspired letter to the Hebrews states that in this spiritual temple the Most Holy is “heaven itself,” the area where the person of God is. (Heb 9:24) Since only the Most Holy is “heaven itself,” then the Holy and the priestly courtyard, as well as their features, must pertain to things on earth, those things having to do with Jesus Christ during his ministry on earth and his followers who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.”—Heb 3:1.

This spiritual temple is the one John refers to in Revelation. The WT tries to go around this point by claiming that the great crowd is serving on the courtyard of the temple, something that is not true, since the term "naos" as used by John only included the most inner holy areas, and thus it can only refer to the location of Jehovah himself, or heaven.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

Naos means temple. Jehovah can have a temple on earth.

No, it doesn't. A Believer, are you even reading what we write? Use your critical thinking skills, please.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

No Sanchy. What I'm telling you is their is more than one great crowd.

What does this have to do with the location of the great crowd from Rev 7? The bottom line is that the one from Rev 7, which is the critical one we are deabting about, is said to be serving in "naos" (7:15), which is in heaven as per all the scriptures outlined for you in the posts above.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

Wizztick the 144000 are a great crowd. Yes they are in heaven.

So you are admitting then that the Great Crowd mentioned in Rev 7 is indeed in heaven then?

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

A Believer, take your time and analyze what wizzstick wrote. The temple sanctuary or "naos" (the greek word used in Rev 7:15) is shown time after time to be "in heaven".

There is no way around it. This "Great Crowd" is in heaven. Who they are is up to anyone's interpretation, but they are not on Earth.

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

Sanchy We can stand before God that day. And temples back then would be like KHs now. Still...who are survivors of great tribulation from every nation? Not angels. Can you answer me that?

Who said anything about angels? The great crowd is any that are not of the israelite 144k that are before the great throne. I'm guessing you are not going to read the link I provided, so I'll quote related segments directly:

A strong indication that the Great Crowd are in heaven is that when Revelation 7:15 states that the Great Crowd are "in his temple" it uses the Greek word naos. Naos refers to the inner temple or temple sanctuary. General worshippers were only allowed in the outer courtyard; hieron. The Great Crowd are not on earth, they are in naos, the centre of the temple, the temple sanctuary; that is, they are in heaven itself with the 144,000.
The Watchtower Society understands this distinction between naosnaos and hieron. In the Watchtower 1960 Aug 15 p.493 it explained;
"The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron."

183

The Great Crowd!

by A Believer in

notice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!

a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .

this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!

Sanchy

Welcome back A Believer. I see you conveniently missed verse 15 of that same chapter that states:

15: That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.

Note that they are "before the throne" and serving "in his temple". This points to a heavenly location. If you want a more detailed discussion, visit HERE.

17

Preaching work already done - not for now

by stockholm_Syndrome in

compare what happened during the apostolic period -col 1:23:provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, established on the foundation and steadfast, not being shifted away from the hope of that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven.+ of this good news i, paul, became a minister.rom 16:26but has now been made manifest* and has been made known through the prophetic scriptures among all the nations according to the command of the everlasting god to promote obedience by faith;who was the preaching commission, or coming forward as a witness given to?

remembering context, audience and purpose….john 15:27;and you, in turn, are to bear witness,+ because you have been with me from the beginning.hmmm i personally wasn't with jesus from the beginning ---were you ?matt 11:1when jesus had finished giving instructions to his 12 disciples, he set out from there to teach and preach in their cities.i wasn't one of his original 12 disciples ---where you?matthew 28:16-20however, the 11 disciples went to galʹi·lee to the mountain where jesus had arranged for them to meet.

17 when they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted.18 jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Sanchy

Good point Stockholm,

Even while in, I always wondered how we could justify everyone having to preach, when there was no biblical evidence that all 1st century Christians did so. Beyond that, where is the decree for keeping and analyzing fellow Christian's personal field service reports?

141

Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..

Sanchy

You said spiritual creatures that weren't angels. The Bible says nothing of the sort living i heaven.

Angels are beings created directly in the spirit realm, having never lived on Earth. The resurrected according to Jesus and the apostles would live in heaven AFTER death and thus they are not the same as angels.