Wizztick the 144000 are a great crowd. Yes they are in heaven.
So you are admitting then that the Great Crowd mentioned in Rev 7 is indeed in heaven then?
Sanchy
JoinedPosts by Sanchy
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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Sanchy
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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Sanchy
A Believer, take your time and analyze what wizzstick wrote. The temple sanctuary or "naos" (the greek word used in Rev 7:15) is shown time after time to be "in heaven".
There is no way around it. This "Great Crowd" is in heaven. Who they are is up to anyone's interpretation, but they are not on Earth.
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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Sanchy
Sanchy We can stand before God that day. And temples back then would be like KHs now. Still...who are survivors of great tribulation from every nation? Not angels. Can you answer me that?
Who said anything about angels? The great crowd is any that are not of the israelite 144k that are before the great throne. I'm guessing you are not going to read the link I provided, so I'll quote related segments directly:
A strong indication that the Great Crowd are in heaven is that when Revelation 7:15 states that the Great Crowd are "in his temple" it uses the Greek word naos. Naos refers to the inner temple or temple sanctuary. General worshippers were only allowed in the outer courtyard; hieron. The Great Crowd are not on earth, they are in naos, the centre of the temple, the temple sanctuary; that is, they are in heaven itself with the 144,000.
The Watchtower Society understands this distinction between naosnaos and hieron. In the Watchtower 1960 Aug 15 p.493 it explained;
"The fact is that this temple was not just one building but a series of structures of which the temple sanctuary was the center. In the original tongue this is made quite clear, the Scripture writers distinguishing between the two by the use of the words hieron and naos. Hieron referred to the entire temple grounds, whereas naos applied to the temple structure itself, the successor of the tabernacle in the wilderness. Thus John tells that Jesus found all this traffic in the hieron."
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183
The Great Crowd!
by A Believer innotice the 144000 can be counted and they all come from israel.. 9 after this i saw, and look!
a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ .
this great crowd, no man was able to number, and they come from every nation!
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Sanchy
Welcome back A Believer. I see you conveniently missed verse 15 of that same chapter that states:
15: That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.
Note that they are "before the throne" and serving "in his temple". This points to a heavenly location. If you want a more detailed discussion, visit HERE.
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Preaching work already done - not for now
by stockholm_Syndrome incompare what happened during the apostolic period -col 1:23:provided, of course, that you continue in the faith, established on the foundation and steadfast, not being shifted away from the hope of that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven.+ of this good news i, paul, became a minister.rom 16:26but has now been made manifest* and has been made known through the prophetic scriptures among all the nations according to the command of the everlasting god to promote obedience by faith;who was the preaching commission, or coming forward as a witness given to?
remembering context, audience and purpose….john 15:27;and you, in turn, are to bear witness,+ because you have been with me from the beginning.hmmm i personally wasn't with jesus from the beginning ---were you ?matt 11:1when jesus had finished giving instructions to his 12 disciples, he set out from there to teach and preach in their cities.i wasn't one of his original 12 disciples ---where you?matthew 28:16-20however, the 11 disciples went to galʹi·lee to the mountain where jesus had arranged for them to meet.
17 when they saw him, they did obeisance, but some doubted.18 jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “all authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
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Sanchy
Good point Stockholm,
Even while in, I always wondered how we could justify everyone having to preach, when there was no biblical evidence that all 1st century Christians did so. Beyond that, where is the decree for keeping and analyzing fellow Christian's personal field service reports?
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141
Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?
by minimus ini bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..
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Sanchy
You said spiritual creatures that weren't angels. The Bible says nothing of the sort living i heaven.
Angels are beings created directly in the spirit realm, having never lived on Earth. The resurrected according to Jesus and the apostles would live in heaven AFTER death and thus they are not the same as angels.
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141
Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?
by minimus ini bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..
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Sanchy
The Bible flat out says 144000 brought from earth.
It also "flat-out" says that the Great Crowd is in heaven. It also "flat-out" says that there is one resurrection, one to a spiritual body. So how do you reconcile this?
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141
Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?
by minimus ini bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..
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Sanchy
What you are saying about them being spiritual creatures but not angels...what religion teaches this? It seems like you made it up
..really? I'd say the majority, if not all mainstream Christian religions teach that when one dies they resurrect as spiritual beings to live in a spiritual realm.
I myself am not trying to teach anything. I'm only demonstrating how WT theology is incorrect in many respects.
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141
Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?
by minimus ini bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..
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Sanchy
Also Sanchy we don't believe in two resurrections just one on earth.
This is not correct A Believer. According to WT, there is a "heavenly resurrection" for the 144k, and then there is the billions that will physically resurrect into paradise Earth..
Click below and go to "Heavenly Resurrection" cat and then "Earthly Resurrection"
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141
Do You Remember When JWs Relished Explaining Their Beliefs?
by minimus ini bet most witnesses could not explain their blood policy, their understanding of the slave, and even simple biblical doctrines....they are an embarrassment to any old timer..
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Sanchy
and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Interestingly, WT also teaches that the resurrected CAN INDEED die. They teach that any resurrected that does NOT pass the 1000 year test will be destroyed, therefore you have proven WT wrong, even with your interpretation of Luke 20:36
A Believer, the more fitting interpretation is that the resurrected are spiritual beings living in a spiritual heavenly setting, (again read 1 Cor 15) and they are NOT angels.
Maybe the WT does have it wrong about who the term great crowd is being referred to in this scripture.
They are wrong about this and many other things. The problem is that JWs are not allowed to question this or any other obviously flawed doctrine. If they do, they risk being DF as apostates.
There is much else WT is wrong on. Just seek online and you'll find. Excellent place to start: jwfacts.com