My take is that war was different back then. Now we have smart bombs. I see that as the sad collateral damage of primitive war weapons. The intent was to kill supply lines and the war machine and hit as many military targets as possible - not to indiscriminately kill civillians. That's not efficient warfare and does not advance the millitary objectives.
rem
Posts by rem
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398Wasn't Saddam ousted for doing precisely this sort of thing?
by Simon inutterly disgusting.
those responsible should be lined against a wall and shot.
publicly.. i think that would win more hearts and minds than bombing cities and using gunships on civilian areas.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/.
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rem
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398
Wasn't Saddam ousted for doing precisely this sort of thing?
by Simon inutterly disgusting.
those responsible should be lined against a wall and shot.
publicly.. i think that would win more hearts and minds than bombing cities and using gunships on civilian areas.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/.
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rem
Poland had a right to fight. They did not have a right to use terrorist tactics against clear civillian targets. If I were German I would complain about Poland using terrorist tactics against us even if we stole their land. Military targets are acceptable. I can even understand collateral damage - but only if a clear military target is the objective.
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398
Wasn't Saddam ousted for doing precisely this sort of thing?
by Simon inutterly disgusting.
those responsible should be lined against a wall and shot.
publicly.. i think that would win more hearts and minds than bombing cities and using gunships on civilian areas.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/.
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rem
>> right they can do this - but then they cannot complain about terrorism!
Sure they can... we can always complain about terrorism. There is no moral equivelancy between allegedly stealing land (I'll go with your interpretation) and blowing up busses and cafe's full of innocent people. (non-military targets)
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50
Nicholas Berg's Beheading
by Elmer J. Fudd ini downloaded the beheading of nicholas berg and watched the video over and over.
my opinion is that the video was edited to the max and berg was already dead when they cut his head off.
no blood, no convulsions.
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rem
I won't watch it, but I'm not sure why out of synch sound would be suspicious. It's not difficult to mess up a digital to analog transfer of video and sound. What, do we think terrorists are audio-video experts now or something? It was probably just mixed down on a crappy pc using crappy software using a crappy codec. They were probably more concerned about getting it out as quickly as possible than quality of their product.
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50
Nicholas Berg's Beheading
by Elmer J. Fudd ini downloaded the beheading of nicholas berg and watched the video over and over.
my opinion is that the video was edited to the max and berg was already dead when they cut his head off.
no blood, no convulsions.
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rem
Maybe they had a sthpeeth impethemendth?
Wascawwy wabbit!
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60
Coincidences?
by Agent 1 of 1 ini've been doing alot more research than i ever have when i was a dub.
and i'm starting to realize its not just what the dubs teach that seem coincidental.
its what the bible shares.
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rem
El Blanko,
I think you underestimate how good you have it right now due to science (with no help from mysticism). From your profile it looks like you are 36 years old. A little over a century ago, you would probably already be dead or severely debilitated - if you even survived child birth at all. You would most likely be malnurished and smaller than your stature today, working long, hard hours. You likely would not have much time for hobbies - just work. Of course, if you were lucky enough to be born rich, then some of these things would not apply.
You certainly wouldn't be able to share ideas with people on the other side of the planet at the speed of light like you are doing right now. That is, unless you believe ESP really works. If so, then telephones and the Internet are highly redundant wastes of time. :)
There is a myth of the golden age. The fact is that humans have always exploited their environment. I believe Easter Island is an example of primitive societies killing themselves off by raping their environment - and they were mystics! It's not just modern, rational humans that do this. The difference is that science gives us the foresight to know that we need to change our ways. They mystics didn't have this advantage.
And I am looking forward to sharing a pint of Guinness with you guys some day... hopefully not warm Guinness. :)
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60
Coincidences?
by Agent 1 of 1 ini've been doing alot more research than i ever have when i was a dub.
and i'm starting to realize its not just what the dubs teach that seem coincidental.
its what the bible shares.
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rem
Little Toe,
>> So you reserve room for such a speculation (good), but you not only rule it out for yourself (fine), but encourage others to drop it(not so good)?
I reserve that the possibility is there, but for people to state matter of factly that it exists is irrational. It's also possible that leprechauns are causing the phenomenon - it doesn't mean that it's likely, rational, or should be believed. When people don't know something, they should leave it at that and not make up non-falsifialbe explanations and then be surprised that their pet beliefs are being challenged.
>> Why should we trust you any more than our own experience?
You DON'T have experience living before the 20th century. All anyone has to do is read history books and other literature from days past to know that life was pretty much a fight for survival for most people - and still is for people who are not fortunate enough to have access to the advances that we Westerners have today. Let's not be silly. :)
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60
Coincidences?
by Agent 1 of 1 ini've been doing alot more research than i ever have when i was a dub.
and i'm starting to realize its not just what the dubs teach that seem coincidental.
its what the bible shares.
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rem
El Blanko,
No problem. I do sense a certain anti-intellectual vibe from you, though. I think you should check out the occult for yourself - really check it out. Many just get the warm an fuzzies from the mystical books they read. If that's good enough for you, then fine... but if you want a deeper understanding, I recommend you look at both sides.
Trust me, life was not better when people were supposedly in touch with some mystical force. This myth just cracks me up. Just imagine being treated for an illness by a witch doctor. I don't believe it's merely happenstance that the quality and length of life are greatly improved in the last century or so all because of science. Mysticism hasn't added one jot to humanity - it's only kept people ignorant and superstitious.
Also, before you shrug off the reality of perception illusions I would suggest doing some research on them. They are real and they are powerful. They don't just happen to crazy people - it's normal human nature and behavior.
A couple of parapsychologists who were originally believers but became unbelievers due to deeper investigation are Susan Blackmore and Ray Hymann. I can probably dig up several others.
>> I started a thread the other day called "smoke & orbs" which had very little interest shown towards it. I had further information to share, but frankly couldn't be bothered.
Sorry I missed that thread, I've been really busy lately. :)
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60
Coincidences?
by Agent 1 of 1 ini've been doing alot more research than i ever have when i was a dub.
and i'm starting to realize its not just what the dubs teach that seem coincidental.
its what the bible shares.
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rem
Little Toe,
Anything's possible, right? ;)
I see what you mean, but I have also had spiritual/paranormal experiences. Perhaps they didn't touch me in the same way as to leave such a lasting impression, or maybe the rational side of me is just more prominent in my psychie.
If you personally hopped and your cancer went into remission, it would be very difficult for you to not believe the hopping was the cause. Humans are very good at finding patterns and hypothesising cause and effect. Unfortunately, many times our first instinct of cause and effect are wrong due to perception illusions (it's common enough to be a logical fallacy) - and only controlled statistical analysis can determine this.
So it is completely possible (and likely) that someone who's cancer goes into remission after hopping will come to an incorrect conclusion of cause and effect. The problem is that resting on our instincts doesn't necessarily get us to the truth of the matter. Maybe there is a real reason why your cancer went into remission that had nothing to do with hopping. Without scientific investigation we'll never know - and the possible benefits to mankind are lost.
I guess my point is that personal experience - or 1st hand anecdotes can be misleading as well. A sample of one is not enough to come to an accurate conclusion. More samples are needed - but other similar anecdotes from other people do not count as an increased sample size because there is no way to controll for extraneous variables.
In the case of hopping, the answer may be found (with a large enough sample size) - and it may just be that a small random sample will always go into remission, whether they hopped or not. It's just that the people who hopped spread their anecdotes more efficiently.
The same with spiritual experiences. Maybe there is a population of people who are just more susceptable to perception illusions than others? Maybe there really is a phenomenon? Without hard data, there is now way to tell. Interestingly scientific studies and experiments have shown that there are people who are more susceptable to such illusions than others and even more interestingly, this population has a strong correlation with believers in spiritual phenomenon.
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60
Coincidences?
by Agent 1 of 1 ini've been doing alot more research than i ever have when i was a dub.
and i'm starting to realize its not just what the dubs teach that seem coincidental.
its what the bible shares.
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rem
El Blanko,
No, I'm not suggesting that all of your friends are liars or fraudsters. There are many many explanations for reports of paranormal and spiritual events. Lying and exaggeration are important contriubutors for sure, but psychological illusions and sensory perception errors are probably more often to blame. The neat thing is - scientific experiments are in agreement with this time and time again.
And I think you have a misconception about the scientists trying to find spiritual phenomenon. For the most part they aren't cynical, skeptical buggers - those types don't usually waste their time with the subject. On the contrary, the field of parapsychology is filled with believers who yearn to find evidence of their convictions. Time and time again they have been let down. Many former believers have turned into non-believers because of this lack of evidence.
Little Toe,
I think that if you are honest with yourself you will find that you have the same opinion of anecdotal evidence, because in reality all it is is common sense. I think that you have let your irrational beliefs cloud your better judgement when it comes to the particular topic of spirituality and the paranormal. If someone told you they know of tons of people being cured of cancer by hopping on one foot for 24 hours, I'm sure you'd be skeptical... but when someone says something similar about the paranormal, you become incredibly credulous.
Also, I find it interesting that nothing has been found after all these years. Sure, maybe the spirits are hiding (a nonfalsifiable theory that begs the question of whether there are spirits in the first place)... but just think about cryptozoology for a second:
There are many anecdotes about mythical and real animals that lurk in the jungle. Some are amazing, like the abonimable snowman, and some are more prozaic, like certain shy species of cat or ape. After years of searching, the Yetti is yet to be found, but many other extremely rare and shy animals have been documented. This leads a rational person to believe that the Yetti is most probably a myth. I believe there is a strong analog here with spirits. Scientists have searched - and found many exotic elements and sub-particles that were previously theorized. Yet no ghost has ever been captured and analyzed - even though John Edwards seems to have no problem channeling them in.
See, an anecdote may be a reason to start looking for something in a controlled way, but it is not in any way evidence that something exists. If people complained that scientists never looked for ghosts based on anecdotes, then they would have a point... but the fact is that sincere believing scientists HAVE searched for years and found nothing. The anecdotes were not ignored... but after a while you just have to accept that your belief based only on anecdotes is irrational - just like believing in the Lock Ness Monster.
rem