Posts by kepler

406

Goodbye JWD/JWN (my last post)

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

after some considerable thought i have decided that i will no longer post on this forum because i want to return to jehovah.

thank you for all the kindness and many interesting discussions over the years.

i wish you all well in the future and the decisions you make.

kepler

I'm a little late on this "good-bye" thread, but I would like to add a sorry that SBF has left. He seemed like a nice guy with some interesting perspectives and pursued a number of studies seriously. I meant to pick up on a thread he started on good history books to read, any recommendations?

I wonder if he is still interested?

But the notion that he would go back to being a practicing JW did not take me completely by surprise. My reason for that was our discussions on a thread that I had started about a year ago.

	“Truly I say to you,…” “Amen I say to you,”… Inferences from a Gospel manner of speech 2 3

The issue was whether there was any ambiguity in what Christ said to the Good Thief in Luke 23:38-40. I believed that as described by Luke, Christ was saying that the thief would be in paradise that very day. Others, including SBF, believed that the thief still had to go through an elaborate process, not to mention being vetted as one of the 144,000 elect after Christ's invisible return to earth millenia later.

And I suspect a whole lot of people on this forum would agree with SBF about that. Why? Because that was something they had been told despite the visible evidence of context and what they had just read. To be sure its readers got the point, the NWT put a comma in the text so that it was clear that Christ agreed with the translation departments a priori view on this.

I had compiled a list of all the other "Truly I say to you" expressions uttered by Christ in the Gospels and noted that this translation was inconsistent. Also, in Acts, by the same author, I found an instance where Paul swore an oath "on that day" and it was not consistent with Christ saying the good thief would be kept in a holding tank either.

SBF thought he had solved the problem for himself because he was aware of a Syraic translation, I believe, that was consistent with the requirement that Christ had to return to Earth first. It looked like the Syraic translators of Luke's Greek had syntax in it that would postpone Christ's promise. It was not elaborated, but the alert reader of Luke would realize that it would come an account payable after some formula introduced by Daniel and then detailed by revelations in Revelations and revealed even further via a printing press in Brooklyn's perishable paper.

That's just the way redemption was supposed to work.

Now I guess there are those sleeping better above ground knowing that the Good Thief is still asleep under it waiting his turn behind the WTBTS annointed and its governing board.

17

WHY did we used to read this verse and think that it referred to Satan? How can anyone??

by The Quiet One in

in any translation you like.... .

http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-1.htm.

kepler

Bart B:

There is only one reference to Satan in the OT in 1 Chr 21:1. However there are other various uses of the hebrew word satan which means adversay, resitor, or opposer. The first is in Numbers 22:22, where the "Jehovah's angel" acted "as opposer" the hebrew in the MT shows "as satan".

In addition in Job the refence is to "the satan" as it is in Zechariah 3:1,2. The use of as satan and the satan only show that, and we can assume whoever fills this roll uses this title, and that they are either a single angel or the role of satan could be filled by any of them. However in 1 Chr 21 the use of Satan as a proper noun indicates a specific individual and this is the first use of the term in this way.

Did you mean to imply that the content of the NT is more likely to be Essene in its nature as opposed to Pharisee, Sadducee, or Zealot?

----

Bart B,

I am familiar with your 1 Chronicles reference to David and the census - and the subsequent decision to build a temple - and had forgotten about it when I wrote that the above note. It puzzles me in the sense that every other "satanic" reference I've heard of does not seem to hold much water ( e.g., Ezekiel comparing the King of Tyre or Isaiah speaking of Lucifer or the morning star - they are denouncing earthly kings).

The most compelling argument though is that Genesis, the Penteteuch and whole OT absolutelydrop the subject after chapter 3. It does not come up in conversations between the Lord and Abraham, the Lord and Moses or anyone else. And in comparison to the lucid writing in Wisdom, the incident in Chronicles does not really tell us anything. Why that particular census was out of order or demonic is baffling. But there are hints.

Reading Job, we are confronted not with a serpent but a figure in a celestial court. And the test is a wager. This was written in a time when there were camel caravans, which dates it to some time after the Assyrians introduced them into the Mideast, perhaps the 8th century. It was certainly not Mosaic as the appendices of the NWT insist. The structure fo the book has prose introduction and epilog - and verse in between. Everything is restored to Job in this life after the end of the poem - with interest. I am inclined to think that ha satan means "the opposer" or someone who takes the antagonistic view. This was not someone that was thrown out of heaven for rebellion.

It is odd though, that if this incident is that important, then why does it not figure in Kings as well? After all, David does. When was Chronicles written? During a period of post exile, contemporary with Nehemiah and Ezra. What was a pre-occupation? Re-BUILDING the temple. Who was in control? The Persians. What was their religion? Zoroastrianism, the belief of the Magi.

On the last question, the content of the NT, I at first thought that there might be another group to consider (Persian influences such as the Magi), as indicated by what I said about the incident in Chronicles. After all, the NT with Matthew begins with genealogy in chapter one, and in chapter two we have visiting Magi ( check the Greek) looking for the birthplace of a "leader" who will shepherd the people of Israel. ..

When I read the Zoroastrian texts, to say the least, they resembled the Book of Enoch or Milton's Paradise Lost more than anything I read in the Old Testament. And as far as I know, they are the oldest version of this cosmology. Manicheanism seems to be a re-birth of it centuries later, originating again in the East, but infiltrating into early Christian churches. For example, Augustine of Hippo had to decide whether he would be a Manichean or a more orthodox Christian. He chose the latter, but a lot of his views were probably formed from his earlier life.

But the parsing of Jewish beliefs by Josephus in that early chapter of "The Jewish Wars" does not give any credit to the Persians for anything. He attributes such beliefs as the Essenes had to the Greeks. Still, the Persians ruled Judeaa much longer than the Greeks and without significant revolt. And the Hellenic Empire was a thin veneer of Greeks over regions that simply treated the whole affair of Alexander the Greate as a change of hands, save for improved communications medium their alphabet and language provided. To a certain degree the Greek heirs of Alexander were assimilated just like the Mongols were in China.

So, when Josephus speaks of Essenes resembling Greeks, what was Greek about their beliefs? It wasn't the gods of the Iliad or Olympus, but maybe the notion of Hades. Was it Neo-Platonism? Perhaps, but I don't think the Essenes were all that given to meditate on perfect triangles. I would say that their Greek influence was some sort of adaptation of Zoroastrian, Greek and Judean beliefs. And at the time, that meant seeing a great evil spirit in contest with the Creator.

17

WHY did we used to read this verse and think that it referred to Satan? How can anyone??

by The Quiet One in

in any translation you like.... .

http://biblehub.com/genesis/3-1.htm.

kepler

My own researches is that the explanation of Genesis serpent is a very late idea. It appears in the deutero-canonical book "Wisdom", written in Greek by an Alexandrian Jew.

The last words of Chapter II, verses 23-24.

For God created human beings to be immortal , he made them as an image of his own nature.

Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy as those who belong to him find to their cost.

New Jerusalem Bible. Accordingly it notes it was used by church fathers in the second century AD. It is suspected to have been written sometime before Philo, probably around 2nd half of 1st century BC.

I agree that elsewhere in the OT, there is no reference to the devil, and yet in the NT he or a demon stands behind every tree.

Josephus says in the Jewish Wars that there were three parties of belief in Judaea and that the Essenes most closely resemble this point of view ( he does not mention Wisdom there, however, if he mentions it at all elsewhere). He claims that the Essenes must have got their notions from the Greeks. I had thought he was talking about Aegean Greeks until I encountered this piece probably from Alexandria. I am unaware of any copies of this among the Dead Sea Scrolls, however.

30

1914 not Christ's Return anymore?

by pacloc in

looking at the public dec 2013 watchtower under bible questions answered it looks like they are saying that the invisible return of christ is completely in the future.

i thought that they always said it started in 1914?

am i reading this wrong?.

kepler

Hmmm, I think I follow that, I think. Arriving and then leaving. And then returning and leaving again. To return... etc.

So where has he been. Or when he arrives where did he come from and when he leaves where does he go?

How does this affect communication?

Does the quality of life here on Earth change considerably between arrivals and departures visible or invisible? Does history take a different turn? Visible presence I can see some impact, yes; but the announced invisible arrivals and departures I only observe individuals forcibly trying to draw my attention to the imperceptible as well, even more elusive than climate change or global warming to someone living on the coast at the equator.

In the more recent cases of invisible arrival and departure, how was it perceived? Granted, since I am of the lower forms (non GB, non-annointed, non-baptised in the faith) or simply the target, a simple householder, I cannot perceive the invisible passages. But I am supposed to take the assurances of the GBs and their printed productions that Christ has returned and left and will return again, I guess, to pick some things up that were left behind.

The title Witness implies testimony, but name Witness also denotes observation. How can you witness an event that you cannot observe or sense? By reasoning a linkage among apocalyptic writings, numerological interpretations and pyramid corridors that supposedly represent ages of creation?

The GB and the like do not profess to have any senses that I do not have, but just a sensitivity to these passages and reams of paper for printing presses plus a distribution system similar to Walmart's or McDonald's...

And a penchant for declaring whatever might suit them as they stare out from a corner of a larger room where they are waiting for the paint to dry.

7

Roots and geometries in Revelations

by kepler in

several days ago while driving across town in the car, it came in conversation that the new jerusalem was perfect cube.. also, according to my source, the measure of city's dimension was quite significant of itself.. since beltway traffic was heavy and i was in the midst of exiting to an even more congested side road, i let most of those assertions ride.

but i made a mental note to look up and read the specifics of revelations chapter 21. from previous readings and commentaries, i was already a sceptic about whether john of the gospel was the same author of the epistles and this final book.

if i looked at words and concepts in the gospel and revelations, i am inclined to think that john patmos was a wholly new influence on the course of the overall biblical book: someone accused of a less polished greek, pre-occupied with swords, harlots, the number seven and the the number 12, wings and mouths, codes and symbols for sure.. 21:1 - "then i saw a new heaven and a new earth...".

kepler

Transhuman68,

Perhaps the answer to my inquiry is the book you mentioned above ( Dead Sea Scrolls by Wise, Cook & Abegg). Nonetheless, I have found it hard to tie down what the fragments of the scrolls are telling us. And quite often the forensic discussions of their existence seem rather close mouthed about conclusions that can be drawn.

To illustrate, here was a recent train of thought and a topic on Bible studies. I had wondered about the characterization by Josephus in the Jewish War (with Rome) of the three principal so-called parties of Jewish philosophy: the Pharisees, Saduccees and Essenes and how they contrasted with current theological beliefs. The Essenes were characterized as believing in a spiritual resurrection - and Josephus accused them of being influenced by Greek thought. Discussions of the OT references to resurrection or after life led me to the deuteronomical book Wisdom of Solomon. Written in Greek probably in the last century BC, the book clearly mentions the notions that form much of New Testament theology.

Wisdom: 2:24 - "Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him to their cost."

I repeat. Nothing else I see in the Old Testament connects it so closely with the New - and the Wisdom book is not even included in most of the Bibles sold. Evidently the Hellenized Greeks to which Josephus refers are based in Alexandria and are not drawing from Olympian tales or the Iliad. It's the Neo-Platonic school from the start.

Yet on the other hand, when I look for any evidence that Qumran had a book of Wisdom in its remains, I see none.

7

Roots and geometries in Revelations

by kepler in

several days ago while driving across town in the car, it came in conversation that the new jerusalem was perfect cube.. also, according to my source, the measure of city's dimension was quite significant of itself.. since beltway traffic was heavy and i was in the midst of exiting to an even more congested side road, i let most of those assertions ride.

but i made a mental note to look up and read the specifics of revelations chapter 21. from previous readings and commentaries, i was already a sceptic about whether john of the gospel was the same author of the epistles and this final book.

if i looked at words and concepts in the gospel and revelations, i am inclined to think that john patmos was a wholly new influence on the course of the overall biblical book: someone accused of a less polished greek, pre-occupied with swords, harlots, the number seven and the the number 12, wings and mouths, codes and symbols for sure.. 21:1 - "then i saw a new heaven and a new earth...".

kepler

Londo111,

This must be a cautionary tale: Here I was, I started on this rant and end up inadvertently deriving the prophetic foot-year principle - very close to my mouth. Reminiscent of the pyramid inch used to track events through the ages, it could be used to determine an arrival past - 1914.

A word of caution, however. Unlike the BC-AD calendar, this system employs a zero. So I'll leave 1914 as a student exercise.

Hint: To the first two decimal places Pi is .14 and 9 is divisible by 3.

---

Transhuman,

I appreciate that account of the Dead Sea scrolls. That is exactly the sort of insight many people would like to get out of them. If you could suggest a good guide or two where such matters are discussed, would be much obliged. I suspect others would appreciate as well.

mP,

Well, I get five objects we would call planets that the ancients could identify: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Did they double book Venus as the Evening and Morning stars back then? And the moon?... Or the sun? I think we are on the same page about ancients placing much stock in numbes such as seven, twelve and forty, but if they were vague about dimensions, they would be vague about rationales as well. Sometimes they actually did have to get specific with building plans, but then all those symbolic numbers show up all over again.

----

7

Roots and geometries in Revelations

by kepler in

several days ago while driving across town in the car, it came in conversation that the new jerusalem was perfect cube.. also, according to my source, the measure of city's dimension was quite significant of itself.. since beltway traffic was heavy and i was in the midst of exiting to an even more congested side road, i let most of those assertions ride.

but i made a mental note to look up and read the specifics of revelations chapter 21. from previous readings and commentaries, i was already a sceptic about whether john of the gospel was the same author of the epistles and this final book.

if i looked at words and concepts in the gospel and revelations, i am inclined to think that john patmos was a wholly new influence on the course of the overall biblical book: someone accused of a less polished greek, pre-occupied with swords, harlots, the number seven and the the number 12, wings and mouths, codes and symbols for sure.. 21:1 - "then i saw a new heaven and a new earth...".

kepler

Several days ago while driving across town in the car, it came in conversation that the New Jerusalem was perfect cube.

Also, according to my source, the measure of city's dimension was quite significant of itself.

Since beltway traffic was heavy and I was in the midst of exiting to an even more congested side road, I let most of those assertions ride. But I made a mental note to look up and read the specifics of Revelations chapter 21. From previous readings and commentaries, I was already a sceptic about whether John of the Gospel was the same author of the epistles and this final book. If I looked at words and concepts in the Gospel and Revelations, I am inclined to think that John Patmos was a wholly new influence on the course of the overall Biblical book: someone accused of a less polished Greek, pre-occupied with swords, harlots, the number seven and the the number 12, wings and mouths, codes and symbols for sure.

21:1 - "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth..."

21: 9- "One of the 7 angels that had the 7 bowls full of the seven final plagues came to speak to me and said, 'Come here and I will show you the bride that Lamb has married... [and] in the spirit he carried me to the top of a very high mountain and showed me Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. ...Its wall was of great heigh and had 12 gates... and over the gates were written the names of the 12 tribes of Israel... and on each of the twelve foundation stones, each one of which bore the name of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.;

21:15 ... "The plan of the the city is perfectly square, its length the same as its breath. He measured the city with his rod and it was 12,000 furlongs [ elsewhere stadii] equal in length and breath, and equal in height."

I think we stop for now right there, lest we start studying the diamond, gold and other jeweled furnishings. Looking at my Greek NT, it appears that the original was measured as 12,000 stadii per side. One conversion I found is 1 stadia = 607 feet.

One modern measure of the nautical mile for astronautical measures is 6076.115484 ft or about ten stadii. It's a little obscure, but consider some other relationships with nautical miles. If the circumference of a spherical ( vs. oblate) based on a radius of 3443.934 nautical miles is 21,638,875... nautical miles, nothing immediately leaps out at you. Why should we have nautical miles at all? But what if we divide that number by 360 to get the number of nautical miles per degree of circular arc? We get 60.1 nautical miles/ degree or pretty close to 60. With stadii we get about 600.

That there is any connection between circumference and the stadia, I do not attribute this to John of Patmos, but rather to Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes. In the third century BC working in Ptolemaic Egypt, he derived a fairly accurate terrestrial circumference by measuring differences in elevation of the sun in Alexandrian and up-river wells, doing additional work in astronomy and geography.

I don't think John of Patmos saw stadii in this context since he describes the descent of a cubical 1200-nmi wide city onto the plains east of the mediterranean sea. Lunar radius for example is 940 nautical miles. As observed from space the New Jerusalem would be nearly as large as the moon with a point of tangency on the revolving earth somewhere around 30 degrees north. This vision would make more sense with a Flat Earth on which a perfect cube could reside like Florida's Vertical Assembly Buildind, built to about 1/12000th scale.

This is described both as the paradise ( garden earth) and the new earth in various discussions we are aware of. Moreover, there is also a connection between the new Jerusalem and an elect of 144,000. In John's account it would appear to be an exclusive of the tribes of Israel - or at least they would have most of the reservations.

Another problem for 144,000 elect is seating or housing.

When you consider this number for a moment with respect to squares or cubes, you discover that the formations needed to attend to housing or seating are non-trivial.

The square root of 144,000 is 379.473 - so I would recommend even - odd seating and a tweak or two. But when you consider that the square of 1200 nmi per side, you get 1,440,000 square miles. That's an elect population density of 0.1 per square mile and 1200 nautical miles of ceiling space.

The cube root of 144,000 is 52.4. So that would mean a need for 52.4 housing units per side.

No, I'm not an expert on these matters, but they do make me lean away from literal interpretations of apocalyptic writings.

3

The Harp Of God, english, spanish editions

by trackregister99 in

can someone post the editions of the harp of god, in spanish and english:.

english:.

1921 first edition.

kepler

TR99 et al.,

Thanks for bringing this up. Went to the site. Quite a library!

Downloading and reviewing, for general information:

The identification of Russell is on page 239 after a long homage by Rutherford to the "wise and faithful servant". In 1921, Rutherford had not yet invented all of his later cultic language. The faithful and discreet slave" was terminology that grew out of his conflict with Olin Moyle in the 1940s. Moyle talked too much in his resignation letter; so a public procedure for celebrity disfellowship had to be invented as well.

Another curiosity is Rutherford's likening of the org to a Great Pyramid on page 239. He cites Isaiah 19:19 as evidence.

?? Gotta go.

24

I had NO idea about the letter to Hitler......

by Flg8ter in

this was brand new to me........did some research, like we're not supposed to do ;) and dug up crazy stuff that i had no idea about.

my whole life we were taught have bad and evil "christendom" was for trying to pacify hiter during his rise to power, and how different we were for standing up to him!.

then i found about the letter dated june 25,1933 from rutherford and his writting team to hiter.

kepler

"It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis was published in 1935. My paperback edition is a 350 page novel about an American implementation of the concepts of Mein Kampf. I am not sure when Sinclair Lewis actually sat down to his typewriter or started to draft his version of what was happening in Germany transferred to America, but I don't think it was instantaneous in 1935 either. His wife Dorothy Thompson was a Berlin correspondent from 1927, interviewed Hitler, wrote a book about it in 1932 ( "I Saw Hitler") and was expelled from the country for it in 1934. Since Lewis also wrote "Elmer Gantry", I can't help thinking he was something of a clairvoyant in these matters. They are almost like companion volumes. Maybe Rutherford should have read "It Can't Happen Here" or Thompson's reporting from Germany sometime when he wasn't writing of, speaking of and profiting from Armageddon talk himself.

3

Luke 24:44, the canon and its distortion

by kepler in

elsewhere on this forum in some wide ranging discussion there was the question of who had originally written the pentateuch and job.

there are some who would say that the first five books of the bible ( and even job) were written by moses; and then over the passage of centuries, more and more arguments were cited for other origins for these books.

perhaps coincidentally i ran across book about mideast archeology ( the ancient city of ebla) which in the course of providing background gave an overview of this and similar biblical controversies.. the authors examined the arguments (pro) for moses having written the penteteuch citing versus in the the ot and nt:.

kepler

Phizzy, mP, Over the years I have picked up several books that discuss Biblical criticism, which is to say that the text is analyzed similar to other ancient writings. The result is that the "literary" theories such as authors J for Yahweh, E for Elohim, D for Deuteronomy, P for priestly and so forth are described and examined. The discussions come from various religious groups ( e.g., Protestant, Jewish, Catholic and not-committed) and the level of support for this theory or others varies. Rendsburg, for example, is sceptical about it himself, but uses it to illustrate very significant features of the Pentateuch. He also ignores others, such as repeted and alternate versions of the same story. But with regard to Josephus and the canon, his 22 books are essentially the books that are accepted in the King James Bible. Some are combined such as Kings, Samuel, Chronicles, Ezra-Nehemiah. And they appear much in the same manner in Hebrew bibles used in Judaism today. It is the so-called Deutero-canonical that appeared in the Septuagint, that are not accounted for by Josephus. These were included for some time in King James publications. And they remain in Catholic bibles to this day, if not in others. An interesting exception is the Book of Enoch. Hardly readable in its full extent and it seems to pass into I, II and III segments like a skipping rock. Where would someone draw the line on something like this that seems to have less and less provenance the more it goes on? But what is significant about the Deutero-canonical is that these books ( and chapters) are ones that shed great light on what is contained in the main text. The devil and eternal life are discussed in the same breath in Wisdom of Solomon. That's the ONLY place in the OT I've seen for sure either or both. It's written in Greek maybe in the 1st century BC in Alexandria by an evidently Hellenic but anonymous Jew and seems to have the qualities that Josephus attributes to the Essenes. He accuses them of importing Greek ideas in Contra Apionem. Yet as far as I know there has been no copy of Wisdom of Solomon recovered from Qumran. Maccabees is the only reference to Daniel in the Old Testament. And as I see it, Daniel is the root of a lot of the difficulties with Christian thought today. A whole lot of people are aware of the misinterpretation of Daniel, but I don't think many are aware of how much has been done to cover it up. Since we don't know who wrote the other four books, it is hard to say that Deuteronomy is actually a fraud. The title just might mean what it says. It could very well have been written by the same group of scribes decades after the original four, assuming these did not have second editions. But I am fairly confident it was discovered in Josiah's reign and influenced his policies toward a purge. He died a zealot facing Egyptian chariots. Yet to the minds of the prophets,the kingdom of Judah had erred and needed to pay for its ways. Go figure?