Posts by pseudoxristos

I would like to reply to it, with something that is total BS, uses lots of big words and never gets to the point, but I'm not the greatest with words. Any suggestions.

pseudo

20

Analysis of Apostasy

by pseudoxristos in

jw
friends

a load of crap from a jw forum.

i thought everyone would gag enjoy.. .

i have recently written a short essay on the mode and operation .

pseudoxristos

A load of crap from a JW Forum. I thought everyone would ~~gag~~ enjoy.

I have recently written a short essay on the mode and operation
of apostasy upon the individual attentive to its call. It was
designed primarily as a response to a brother inquiring about
this social phenomena, yet Heinz has most graciously permitted
me to post it here in light of recent developments amongst some
of our Christian family...

*** I would like to briefly discuss just why some individuals, in
spite of receiving a higher education and having a keen mind,
can momentarily or forth-rightly fall into the snare of apostate
reasoning. I use this term liberally, not to label persons as such,
but to describe their manner of thinking as it is subject to the
constraints of an oppositional viewpoint. It has come to my
attention, and indeed many others, that some Witnesses have
chosen to stand against the society on various issues; resulting
in confusion and perturbation on the part of those less
comprehensive of selective issues. Yet, one should not be too
surprised at such seemingly distressing events. Professor
Bryan Wilson, reader Emeritus in Sociology at Oxford University
correctly observes in a 1994 paper on apostasy:

"Every religion which makes claim to a definitive body of doctrine
and practice which it regards as exclusively its own, is likely to be
faced with the fact that from time to time some erstwhile
members will relinquish their allegiance and cease to subscribe
to the formalities of the faith, in at least some, perhaps all, of its
teachings, practices, organization, and discipline."

To be sure, this is a sad consequence of those who decide that
their own doctrinal understanding, or that of another presents
itself as a more expedient solution to questions that may arise
from the mouth of those who seek to dissuade others from
considering the Witnesses as a viable theological choice. Of
course, freedom to choose ones belief is a credit to the Creators
wisdom in that it allows personal motive to be exposed.
However, this freedom is often coerced by some who have no
other design than to repudiate their former associates through
the exposition of alleged doctrinal error.

Herein lies an important axiom that all who may be unaware of
the negative effects of apostate ideology do well to consider;
namely `APOSTASY DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.' It cares not for
qualification or erudition. The reason for this is that apostasy
originates from the heart. It therefore searches for a loophole
within the framework of ones moral sensibilities simply because
it 'can', and it 'can' because it originates from the heart. Hence,
an ideology or philosophy generated through entropy, in this
case apostasy, will do more to systematically corrode one's
moral resilience than almost any other form of defection. By its
very nature apostate thinking seeks religious disaffiliation as its
ultimate goal. Notice how Wilson briefly construes the impetus
behind the apostate mindset:

"The disaffected and the apostate are in particular informants
whose evidence has to be used with circumspection. The
apostate is generally in need of self-justification. He seeks to
reconstruct his own past, to excuse his former affiliations, and to
blame those who were formerly his closest associates".

In harmony with this, a similar article by Lonnie D. Kliever,
Professor of Religious Studies at Southern Methodist University
concludes:

"... apostates always act out of a scenario that vindicates
themselves by shifting responsibility for their actions to the
religious group. Indeed, the various brainwashing scenarios so
often invoked against the new religious movements have been
overwhelmingly repudiated by social scientists and religion
scholars as nothing more than calculated efforts to discredit the
beliefs and practices of unconventional religions in the eyes of
governmental agencies and public opinion. Such apostates can
hardly be regarded as reliable informants by responsible
journalists, scholars, or jurists."

A further point to consider when investigating the engine driving
disaffection and apostasy is pride, which is capable of
reconstructing a persons self image AND the image presented
by others. For instance, when under the influence of extreme
pride `assurance' can often become `self-assurance'and
conviction of belief can turn to `convicted belief.' This unfortunate
reversal occurs primarily due to the emphasis of conviction
being transferred from the object (in this case an individual's
religious fraternity),to the subject (or in otherwords the prideful
person). Hence, no longer is one's religious institution the
provider of instruction, but instead becomes a harness that has
lost its usefulness, since now the primary source of spiritual
edification is qualified by personal preference.

This dynamic shift of everything that one may have considered
certain has become misappropriated by pride and then hidden
from the individual by pride itself!! Yet, very often this ball can be
put in motion through the cordial reception granted to apostate
reasoning. It is for good reason then that Jehovah admonished
his people not to take themselves too seriously when he
warned,

"Pride is before a crash and a haughty spirit before stumbling"
(Proverbs 16:18)

Yet, this self-destructive progression often goes unnoticed even
though the scriptures explain how such ruination is transferred.
For the inspired writer states that it is by his `mouth' that an
apostate brings his fellowman to ruin (Proverbs 11:9a)
Subsequently, when one uses apostate information to inform,
teach or excuse they are unwittingly succumbing to apostasy
themselves. Via these avenues apostasy then empowers
apostasy. (By this I mean to define the influence that apostate
ideology has over its victim, in that apostasy engenders pride
within an individual and then feeds off this same pride in order to
fortify the defection... And so the cycle continues...)

It is not difficult to see therefore how this viscous circle
deceptively stifles the intellect's ability to commit to `certainty' in
faith when doubt inevitably becomes the by-product of inquiry into
apostate reasoning. Consequently, regardless of the intellectual
or social aptitude of the one searching through apostate
material, there is often a betrayal, not necessarily of conviction of
truth at first but of comprehending the insidious power inherent
in apostate views. That is the REAL DANGER! By not
understanding this, or even worse, considering themselves
impervious to it's subtle allure, some have pulled the wool over
their own eyes and subjected themselves to the masquerades
of falsity, half truth and manipulated truth as being veritable truth
itself! In an unfinished paper concerning the social dynamics of
apostasy, this writer has listed three important reminders for
consideration when confronted by the taunts of apostate
ideology:

"By attempting to elicit a favourable emotive response to their
information, they [apostates] are therefore able to set the snare
that leads to doubt. The exponent of this data understands this
and is therefore better able to use such information to
emphasize apparent discrepancies, hypocrisy's, inconsistencies
and the like in order to play on the potential insecurities of the
reader. Consequently, the recipient of apostate information is at
a distinct disadvantage in three very profound ways.

1. The recipient does not usually know if the author's words are
true or false
2. The recipient does not usually know if the author is mixing
truth with falsehood
3. The recipient is usually unable to verify allegations and/or
assertions

The apostate knows this and is therefore capable of
manipulating the person who cannot or does not recognize the
inherent dangers in considering apostate convictions."

Although there is much more to be said concerning the
administration of apostate dogma, perhaps the most important
question if one is tempted to consider the viewpoint and/or
doctrinal treaty of a defector is:

"If it is important to comprehend an apostates argument `of
scripture'... Why did God see it important to condemn it
`through scripture?'" (compare Romans 16:17, Titus 3:10)

The truth is, it is impossible to answer this question by affirming
the initial premise without contravening Jehovah's injunction
against defectors and their viewpoint. ***

In pursuit of truth,
xxxxxxx

pseudo

40

What Would Make You Stop Posting Here?

by minimus in

jw
friends

is it just death or deletion?

pseudoxristos

Armageddon

My last post would probably be: Opps!!!!!!!!!!

pseudo

105

Athiests and Christmas?

by clash_city_rockers in

i was just thinking.

since christmas is about the birth of christ, i know dec 25 was not his birthday, probly born around late sept or early oct. i guess he wanted to be born right before the baseball playoffs and world series, just kidding.

it was the early christian church that appointed dec 25th.

pseudoxristos

Second Atheism cannot consistently be lived. This is the MAIN point of our thread.

There is no need for an Atheist to a live a life in which every action is determined by his disbelief in God. Atheists are free to do, or not do anything they want. In a world dominated by religious beliefs, an Atheist would stick out like a sore thumb if they lived a life that was in constant conflict with society. Empathy towards others prevents Atheists from living such a life.

I have always felt that JW's do not celebrate Christmas, for reasons other than it's pagan origins. They attempt to go against the traditions of society, first to provide a witness for their beliefs and second to incite a self induced persecution. The ensuing persecution is then viewed as an indication that their beliefs are correct. Atheists do not need to propagate their beliefs and persecution is not needed as a crutch for their beliefs. In my opinion an Atheist that would live in such a manner would be repulsive.

Atheists are humans, living in societies that require certain behavior. They have no underlying motivation to act in a manner that would make them feel as if they are unique or righteous. They have nothing to prove to themselves or the god(s).

pseudo

116

I know the Bible is True

by SwedishChef in

i know the bible is true because.... * it is infallible.

there is not one contradiction with these pages.

humans are fallible; the bible is not.. * the word of god is the source of true wisdom.

pseudoxristos

Rem,

Thanks, for the info. Much like you, I was not completely convinced, but did find it an interesting possiblity. I hadn't seen how the gnostics beliefs could be tied in with this. I do plan on getting a copy of the book, it looks interesting.

pseudo

116

I know the Bible is True

by SwedishChef in

i know the bible is true because.... * it is infallible.

there is not one contradiction with these pages.

humans are fallible; the bible is not.. * the word of god is the source of true wisdom.

pseudoxristos

gumby,

Was the idea of a LITERAL messiah, a historical person made up in the minds of men?
Is it possible this man never existed?
I'll recommend a book that has all the documents and sources from which this information comes from. The book is called "The Jesus Mysteries". This is one book of MANY books that will verify what EXACTLY was the historical SETTING when Christianity arose.
When you learn of what the gnostics believed about Jesus, and how the "literalist" imposed a contrary belief, and see how the literalist COPIED an existing belif.....you will be impressed.
It also documents other writers of that time who told their opinions of those Christians who " literalized " Jesus.
There is much on this subject that by far MOST are not familiar with.

I vaguely remember coming across an idea such as this.

If I remember correctly, Paul's writings preceded the Gospels. Paul's writings alone did not provide sufficient biographical information. The Gospels were written to fill the void, adding flesh and bone to what Paul had originally started. This is supported by the fact that Paul never directly quotes the Gospels and some other facts that I have long forgotten.

I am wondering, is this the basis of the book you recommend?

pseudo

116

I know the Bible is True

by SwedishChef in

i know the bible is true because.... * it is infallible.

there is not one contradiction with these pages.

humans are fallible; the bible is not.. * the word of god is the source of true wisdom.

pseudoxristos

Sunstarr,

Analogy would lead me one step further, namely, to the belief that all animals and plants have descended from some one prototype. But analogy may be a deceitful guide. Nevertheless all living things have much in common, in their chemical composition, their germinal vesicles, their cellular structure, and their laws of growth and reproduction. We see this even in so trifling a circumstance as that the same poison often similarly affects plants and animals; or that the poison secreted by the gall-fly produces monstrous growths on the wild rose or oak-tree. Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed. - Charles Darwin

Sounds like Rod Serling to me. How many absurdities are required to change ones mind?

Im not sure how finding fault with Darwins work, is going to prove the Bible is true. Disbelief in the Bible does not require belief in evolution. Point out as many absurdities as you want, Darwin's work is not considered inspired.

Now back to the inspired absurdities.

12 Then spoke Joshua to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah gave up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand still upon Gibeon; And thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon! 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon remained where it was, until the nation had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? And the sun remained standing in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a full day. 14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that Jehovah hearkened to the voice of a man; for Jehovah fought for Israel. Josh 10:12-14 (Darby's)

Absurd! Why didn't Jehovah just kill the Amorites? He certainly didn't have a problem killing the Sodomites. Maybe the God who created everything out of nothing, felt like doing things the hard way. He stopped or slowed down the rotation of the earth for 24 hours just so his beloved Israelites could slaughter the Amorites. Besides, this would help reinforce the idea that the sun revolved around the earth.

Abimelech lusts after an old woman.

1 And Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned at Gerar. 2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister. And Abimelech the king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. Gen 20:1-2 (Darby's)

How old was Sarah? Read what was previously written concerning Sarah's age:

10 And he said, I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12 And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shall I have pleasure, and my lord old? 13 And Jehovah said to Abraham, Why is this, that Sarah laughs, saying, Shall I indeed bear, when I am become old? 14 Is any matter too wonderful for Jehovah? At the time appointed I will return to thee, at this time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son. Gen 18:10-15 (Darby's)

Of course Abraham knew what he was doing, because he had already used this trick before.

10 And there was a famine in the land. And Abram went down to Egypt to sojourn there, for the famine was grievous in the land. 11 And it came to pass when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a woman fair to look upon. 12 And it will come to pass when the Egyptians see thee, that they will say, She is his wife; and they will slay me, and save thee alive. 13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me on thy account, and my soul may live because of thee. 14 And it came to pass when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair. 15 And the princes of Pharaoh saw her, and praised her to Pharaoh; and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And he treated Abram well on her account; and he had sheep, and oxen, and he-asses, and bondmen, and bondwomen, and she-asses, and camels. 17 And Jehovah plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this thou hast done to me? Why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? 19 Why didst thou say, She is my sister, so that I took her as my wife. And now, behold, there is thy wife: take her, and go away. 20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him, and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had. Gen 12:10-20 (Darby's)

Abimelech must be really stupid or really hard up. Abraham's son pulls the same trick on him.

6 And Isaac dwelt at Gerar. 7 And the men of the place asked about his wife. And he said, She is my sister; for he feared to say, my wife, saying to himself, Lest the men of the place slay me on account of Rebecca--because she was fair in countenance. 8 And it came to pass when he had been there some time, that Abimelech the king of the Philistines looked out of the window, and saw, and behold, Isaac was dallying with Rebecca his wife. 9 Then Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, she is certainly thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? and Isaac said to him, Because I said, Lest I die on account of her. 10 And Abimelech said, What is this thou hast done to us? But a little and one of the people might have lain with thy wife, and thou wouldest have brought a trespass on us. 11 And Abimelech charged all the people, saying, He that touches this man or his wife shall certainly be put to death. Gen 26:6-11 (Darby's)

Absurd, or maybe Dittography is the proper term for this and the following narratives.

Lot says, "Have sex with my two virgin daughters, but don't mess with these men."

I'm Glad I'm not one of his kids.

1 And the two angels came to Sodom at even. And Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. And Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed down, the face toward the ground, 2 and he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and lodge, and wash your feet; and ye shall rise up early, and go on your way. And they said, No; but we will pass the night in the open place. 3 And he urged them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house. And he made them a repast, and baked unleavened cakes; and they ate. 4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, from the youngest to the oldest--all the people from every quarter. 5 And they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men that have come in to thee to-night? bring them out to us that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out to them to the entrance, and shut the door after him, 7 and said, I pray you, my brethren, do not wickedly! 8 Behold now, I have two daughters who have not known a man: let me now bring them out to you; and do to them as is good in your sight: only, to these men do nothing; for therefore have they come under the shadow of my roof. 9 And they said, Back there! And they said again, This one came to sojourn, and he must be a judge? Now we will deal worse with thee than with them. And they pressed hard on the man--on Lot; and drew near to break the door. 10 And the men stretched out their hand, and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door. 11 And they smote the men that were at the entrance of the house with blindness, from the smallest to the greatest; and they wearied themselves to find the entrance. Ge n 19:1-11 (Darby's)

This guy must be one of Lots relatives.

Whats with the cutting the concubine into five pieces?

22 They were making their hearts merry, when behold, the men of the city, sons of Belial, surrounded the house, beating at the door; and they spoke to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thy house, that we may know him. 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out to them, and said to them, No, my brethren, I pray you, do not wickedly; seeing that this man is come into my house, do not this villany. 24 Behold, my daughter, who is a virgin, and his concubine; let me bring them out, and humble ye them, and do to them as is good in your sight; but to this man do not so vile a thing. 25 But the men would not hearken to him; and the man took his concubine, and brought her forth to them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning; and let her go when the morning-dawn arose. 26 And the woman came at the dawning of the day, and fell down at the entrance of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. 27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the door of the house, and went out to go his way, and behold, there lay the woman his concubine at the entrance of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. 28 And he said to her, Up, and let us go; but no one answered. And he took her upon the ass; and the man rose up, and went to his place. 29 And when he was come into his house, he took the knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, according to her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the borders of Israel. 30 And it came to pass that every one that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came out of Egypt to this day. Think it over, advise, and speak. Judges 19:22-30 (Darby's)

I could go on with the impossibilities of a worldwide flood, the problems with the authorship of the Pentateuch and the issues of the synoptic gospels, but this will do for now.

I once considered myself a Christian. I had always known that there were a few problems with the Bible but I didn't worry about it. The only reasonable explanation was that there was a God and the Bible was his inspired word. It was not until encountering the Witnesses and their messed up theology that I embarked upon an extensive study of the Bible. My intent was not to become an Atheist, but to find out what was really taught in the Bible. Fortunately I never bought into the Witnesses' twisted logic. But along the way my research began to reveal that there were more and more problems with the Word of God. These problems along with alternate explanations of how the Bible could have developed naturally as a work of man reached a point of critical mass. After months of denial I had to accept the fact, that for 30 years I had mistakenly believed what was forced upon me as a child. I did not want to give up the hope of an afterlife or the idea that there is a God and a purpose to this life. I did not want to be labeled with the term Atheist in a society that thinks that Atheists are idiots. I liked the feeling of fellowship and the thought that I was pleasing a higher power with my actions. I'm torn apart when my mom suggests that I should go to church, not because I fear God or feel guilt, but because I know that she has believed in God for 65 years and I have no right to cause her to doubt her beliefs. I had absolutely no intention of becoming an Atheist. But, I honestly cannot ignore the years of research that have brought me to this point. I really see no need to debate with the average Christian concerning their beliefs. If they are happy and religion is not overwhelming their lives then I will respect their beliefs. I will occasionally debate with Christians but only when they are willing to do so, or when it is obvious that they would be much better off without their religion (e.g. Witnesses).

I also will admit that I definitely do not know everything. I've been wrong before, so I could be wrong now. Do your best to convince me that I've missed something. I would really like to believe in an afterlife again.

pseudo

Edited by - pseudoxristos on 8 December 2002 6:39:36

116

I know the Bible is True

by SwedishChef in

i know the bible is true because.... * it is infallible.

there is not one contradiction with these pages.

humans are fallible; the bible is not.. * the word of god is the source of true wisdom.

pseudoxristos

1 And the serpent was more crafty than any animal of the field which Jehovah Elohim had made. And it said to the woman, Is it even so, that God has said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God has said, Ye shall not eat of it, and ye shall not touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said to the woman, Ye will not certainly die; 5 but God knows that in the day ye eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as God, knowing good and evil. Gen 3:1-5 (Darby's)

25 And the ass saw the Angel of Jehovah, and she pressed herself against the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall; and he smote her again. 26 Then the Angel of Jehovah went still further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. 27 And the ass saw the Angel of Jehovah, and lay down under Balaam; and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with his staff. 28 And Jehovah opened the mouth of the ass, and she said to Balaam, What have I done to thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? 29 And Balaam said to the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in my hand, for now would I kill thee! 30 And the ass said to Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine to this day? was I ever wont to do so to thee? And he said, No. Num 22:25-30 (Darby's)

Sounds like Kipling's "Jungle Book" to me. How many absurdities are required to change ones mind?

pseudo

edited to put punctuation marks back in.

Edited by - pseudoxristos on 7 December 2002 2:46:17

18

Boycott Blockbuster!!!

by LuckyLucy in

my friend and i went to rent a movie from blockbuster video and they charged us a late fee for a movie i rented 3 months ago.

i have rented dozens of movies since then and they never said anything and i am positive i got it back on time.

this has happeded before.. soooo...to make a long story short....i went home and got on line and did a search on blockbuster....nothing but locations and stuff on new releases...blah blah blah...so i started to think ...hmmm maybe they just made a mistake with me...thats cool.. on a whim i typed in blockbuster ripoff and poof!!

pseudoxristos

Several years ago, we rented a video game from one of the local video stores (SuperVideo). My son played the game and then we returned it, on time. About six weeks later we receive a letter stating that we had 3 days to either return the game or pay for it, otherwise legal action would be taken. Apparently they somehow lost the game, and we were the last one on record to have rented it. There was no way to prove that we had returned it, so we had to buy another one and give it to them. It still pisses me off every time I see that store.

Anytime we rent anything now, we keep the receipt and make someone sign it when we return it. I've gotten some strange looks, but I just tell them I'm not going to pay for it if someone loses it or steals it after I've returned it.

You can definitely get screwed by video stores.

pseudo