Posts by Jorden

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

the holy city of Jerusalem don't exist yet.?
Now I'm thinking, maybe God has his people in many diffrent religions not only among JW and they will be gathered in the future

Exactly my thoughts and what I tried hard to write out without actually saying it. It helps to get conformation to hear you say that on your own based on your own conclusion.

But I am not saying that Jerusalem (Christians/Jehovah's people), don't exist yet, yes, they do now, I am just saying that when that time comes to take the 'mark' or not that that is when they will prove to be or not. But yes, Jehovah's people are not only among JW's as they claim. Jesus said the seed is sowed in the field and the field is the world. The field in not WTS, the WTS is in the world though same as all others. Wheat and weeds are all over. When the time comes for the 'mark' it will be given to ALL and ALL that take it will not prove to be Jehovah's people and those that refuse it will prove to be his. We can't judge anyone now, that's why Jesus said to just let the two grow together until that time.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

what in your opinion exactly is Jerusalem? Is Revelation 11:2 referring to literal city? Or is it like JW suggesting some form of God's organization located all over the world?

My thinking is when the time comes for the 42-months (Rev 11:5; 13:5) that is when the 'mark' will be given out. Use whatever term you want to here, Christians/Jehovah's people, they will have to refuse that 'mark'. Those that do that are whom/what Jerusalem/holy city/temple will prove to be.

The trampling/tribulation/conquering/ruling over comes about on Christians/Jehovah's people by means of not having the 'mark' therefore can't buy/sell will be killed or taken into captivity. So, to answer your question, no literal city but because the majority of the people who refuse the 'mark' will be associated with some religion, then there will be literal attacks/confiscations of their properties/churches/kingdom halls, etc.

48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands,+ just as the prophet says

24 The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth,+ does not dwell in handmade temples;+

23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.+ 24 God is a Spirit,+ and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”+

16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple+ and that the spirit of God dwells in you?+ 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.+

16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?+ For we are a temple of a living God;+ just as God said: “I will reside among them+ and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”+

21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together,+ is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah.+ 22 In union with him you too are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+ 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+ 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.+ 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword,* he must be killed with the sword.+ This is where it calls for endurance+ and faith+ on the part of the holy ones.+

2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.+

9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation+ and will kill you,+ and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.+

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations;+ and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled.+

[Joel 2: 17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’]

[Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hoshʹa·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

once again trots out the same tired examples of opinions of people who have no function or control over the UN, which of course are fallacious appeals to authority.

LOL! You don't think that George, Walter, Ted and the Pope have any function/control over the UN? How foolish are you? Do you even know what the UN is and how it works?

We use the term the White House or Washington, or D.C., etc... and say they did this, or that, or past this law or that law, etc. But what really are those terms referring to? They are real people, congress/senators representing the 50 states of real people. And a president, a real person who also represents real people of the 50 states.

What people are concerned about and whom they think will address those concerns are whom they will vote for in their state to be their senator, etc. Then based on the batch of senators you get is whom the president has to work with and so on. Like I gave an example earlier about Trump and the wall, because the batch of senators were whom they were, they did not vote to go along with him on the wall. Had he won and been in office now instead of Biden, the current batch would vote to go along with it and it would be done. And Biden won't call for the wall so it won't happen now either. Why don't them Dem's want the wall...why do they say build bridges not walls?

Here is something from good'ole Ted:

[The founder of the television network CNN, Ted Turner, comments about his work with a number of talented individuals from various nations: “Meeting with these people was an incredible experience. I came to see those from other countries not as ‘foreigners,’ but as fellow citizens of the planet. I began to view the word ‘foreign’ as pejorative and created a rule within CNN that the word could not be used either on air or in conversation around the office. Instead, the word ‘international’ was to be used.”]

You don't think that the men I am using as example have any influence over people? What about Soros, Gates, Gore, etc. What about religious leaders, any influence over people? What about celebrities, any influence over people? (And when I say 'people' I mean the common voting 'people' but also the 'politicians themselves.')

So, based on whom/what the influence is coming from, then 'people' vote in line with what they feel/think/want/concerned about. That in turn will dictate who gets in office and what they will vote for/approve/veto etc.

Now as this applies to the UN. Saying UN is just like saying the White House. The UN is basically the White House and the Capitol but for Nations. Instead, of for 50 states it is for 193 countries, each having their representative. These representatives do exactly that, they represent what their country thinks/feels/believes, etc. Each countries 'people' in turn thinks/feels/believes based on what they are influenced by. That in turn dictates what batch of representatives are in the UN. The so-called UN does not have power on its own it exists and operates from the power and finances each country gives to it. This means that the UN can only 'function' and do what it seeks to do, if it is voted/approved by the member countries.

If you listened to ALL of the video of Walter you would have heard him say that 'right winged senators' who are led by Pat Robertson , they fail to vote/approve certain things when it comes to the UN. What that means is that in this case these 'people/senators' are refraining from approving something in regard to the UN because of their thinking/beliefs influenced on them by Pat. If that is the case, then why can it not be that 'people/senators' that do vote to approve these very same things in regard to the UN, why can't it be said that they were influenced by Ted Turner or Bill Gates, etc.

The point is that depending on what batch of senators are in office during a period of time and their view of the UN is to whether or not they vote to approve or not. And if it is a not then the UN representative for US would not vote up either. This is what controls what the UN can or not do.

Walter is dead now, said that years ago. Many batches of senators have come and gone. George is dead too and Ted has Alzheimer's, he doesn't have a clue what's going on. But the influence to support or not the UN continues on from all directions. No different then to support a D or a R.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

May I ask what in your opinion is Jerusalem that will be trampled for 42 months?

Are you asking who do I think Jerusalem represents or when that time is to be trampled?

To my thinking the 42-months are the GT period, which would begin after/concurrent with the 'pangs of distress'.

[Matthew 24:7“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,+ and there will be food shortages+and earthquakes in one place after another.+ 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.]

[Matt 24:15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+ 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, 18 and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation+ such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.+ 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.]

[Luke 21: 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.] [Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Jorden, you might be on to something.
https://twitter.com/LibertyMutual8/status/1647127824199737346?s=20

SHHH...people might think you are a conspiracy theorist. LOL!

And how dare you send me a twitter link with those on there that are connecting Bible Scriptures from Revelation. That is superstition, don't you know?!

Oh, wait maybe not. Here in the following (which I have already shown) we have a guy I refer to when speaking about the UN because he is a very big promoted of it. What is the clip about? Religion!

So here we have; Ted Turner/UN/Religion.

One World Religion - UN - YouTube

Also, I am talking about WW3 and have shown that the UN chief says the world is heading there. Interesting thou, on that article page is where I saw the twitter clip of Zelenskyy saying that if Ukraine falls that it will be the start of WW3.

So now, 23 mins ago on the AP we have this news about Zelenskyy meeting with Francis. How timely...LOL!

So here we have; WW3/UN/Religion.

Pope Francis says:

A shift toward globalism is necessary, in order to fight climate change and other worldwide “threats.”
“When a supranational common good is clearly identified, it is necessary to have a special authority legally and concordantly constituted capable of facilitating its implementation. We think of the great contemporary challenges of climate change, new forms of slavery and peace,”
“an excessive demand for sovereignty on the part of States.”
Our only hope for planetary peace and progress is to make room for “international organizations” to develop into governing bodies, supplanting the “state interests” with the will of the United Nations,

The_Real_Fly on Twitter: "ZELENSKY: IF HIS REGIME LOSES WAR, THEN THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL GO TO WAR https://t.co/lhB9hw0SDn" / Twitter

Zelenskyy meets Pope Francis at Vatican and seeks backing for Ukraine's peace plan | AP News

[Revelation 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I don’t think the New World Order theory is specious, it is a neo-Marxist idea and there are plenty of people that loudly admit they want to implement it. The good thing is that it’s nearly impossible to implement, look at the EU, once you have a body of people they start subdividing into groups, the EU experiment is on the edge of collapse, the UN has been ineffective for all but the first few years of its existence and even that (Nuremberg trials) were rather controversial and still not universally accepted, the UN effectively existed until the start of the Cold War, since then it has done nothing.

Great fair statement.

Ok you saying:

the UN has been ineffective

That is something that remains to be seen and why I posed my question that somebody does not want to answer. Anything said or judged in regard to the UN has to be viewed in its current state of power/or lack of.

Let's use Trump as example. He wanted a full boarder wall. If he had the power and it was 100% up to him, he would have congress get together all the money needed, and the wall would have been built and be there now. But what happens is there are those that oppose it, and the money and approval is not given so no completed wall. He was dependent on others in order to get it done.

I belonged to a HOA, and they were not taking care of the townhomes as they were supposed to. I knew what needed to be done and also knew they need to raise the fees to pay for it. If I had the power to just say do what I say needs to be done and they would have done it, then I would have done so. But unfortunately, I had to ask and hope that they agreed and then do it. Well, they didn't agree, and the work has not been done.

Were Trump and I ineffective for not getting what we both wanted to have done?

The purpose of the League was to say hey let's not have a 2nd war. Well, the support to the League wasn't there and WW2 happened. Was it the League's fault?

It seems that there was concern about WW2 happening so agreement to support and keep in place the UN was decided in hopes of not having WW3. Look where we are at today, I am not talking about somebody like the guy that said May 11, 2011 was the rapture time, its not like I am saying someone like him is saying WW3 is coming. I am talking about a man that is head of the organization that was created for exactly this purpose to avoid WW3. If he is saying it, then what is the chances of it happening? If anything, he should be saying nothing to worry about this is what the UN is here for, don't worry there will never be WW3 as long as the UN exist.

But instead, what is he saying, 'Hey we are walking right into WW3 eyes open, we need all nations to come together.'

So, what does it mean if nations don't come together to the extent that he is asking? Will it mean that WW3 will happen? Will it be the UN's fault?

You said:

The good thing is that it’s nearly impossible to implement,

What if WW3 does occur? If WW2 convinced the nations that they should have supported the League and so did so with the UN at that time, then will WW3 convince the nations that it was not enough to just have the UN around in its limited powerless role, that the world/nations truly need to be UNITED, screw this separate sovereignty.

This is why I ask the simple question:

What would become of the UN if WW3 does occur?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

Honest readers can see that I have already dealt with the substance of what he is classifying as facts.

Notice how the conspiracy theorist tries to appeal to his information as being factual, but this is true only to the extent that it is a fact that the organisations exist and it is a fact that some people have expressed opinions. He also characterises general statements about solidarity as a more specific agenda without any factual basis.

You say that my facts are only factual in that the UN exist. Why is it that you will not tell me (or honest readers) what it is that you find that I have presented to be nonfactual?

You also state that it is factual 'that some people have expressed opinions.' Do you think I just presented to you some random people on youtube or on a podcast?

George Bush as sitting president said (First link )what he did to congress/military (US government). In referring to what he said was the 5th objective he said that 'that new world (order/era) was struggling to be born.' And everything he states in describing it he makes clear when speaking from the oval office (link two/video) that it is the UN that is to head that NWO. The vision that he said he shared in Helsinki (to world leaders) he makes clear that that is the UN's.

User Clip: President H.W. Bush Joint Session of Congress Promotes New World Order | C-SPAN.org

Bush Sr. New World Order Speech (rare) - YouTube

Walter speaking after retiring from media said that he was now able to speak freely and everything he said was about US supporting the UN. He said that the reason the UN is not functioning to the degree that it was founded was because Christian senators would not vote to do so.

Ted founded the UN foundation did so for the sole purpose to broaden U.S. support for the UN. Keep in mind that the US was already a member and $upporting the UN since 1945 and yet still Ted started the UNF in 1998 to broaden U.S. support for the UN, in order to promote the UN for the purpose of what George and Walter state, to allow it to become the entity that it was purposed to be.

Even Pope Francis says:

A shift toward globalism is necessary, in order to fight climate change and other worldwide “threats.”
“When a supranational common good is clearly identified, it is necessary to have a special authority legally and concordantly constituted capable of facilitating its implementation. We think of the great contemporary challenges of climate change, new forms of slavery and peace,”
“an excessive demand for sovereignty on the part of States.”
Our only hope for planetary peace and progress is to make room for “international organizations” to develop into governing bodies, supplanting the “state interests” with the will of the United Nations,

Do you really think that these are just 'some people' with 'opinions'?

What if we put all that aside for the moment. Just focus on what the current UN chief said about heading into WW3 and he told all 193 member states "to wake up and realize that solidarity is the only way out of disaster."

This is coming not from just 'some man' it is coming from the head man of the UN, an organization that says in their charter under purpose of UN:

[To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;]

Based on that, what does solidarity/unity (the state of being united or joined as a whole) mean for the 193 member states?

Remember the League came about after WW1 and it's purpose was, 'Hey look here the nations need to come together as one so that the world never goes to war like that again.

Many nations agreed and joined on, but US (leaders at that time) were like, NO THANKS we want our sovereignty we will not join. Other nations the same, so the nations that did was not enough and the League failed.

Then in time WW2 came and after it was like, AHH see another world war occurred, should have all joined as one under the League and WW2 would not have happened. Then the nations including US were like well maybe there is a need to some extent to have an international body in place (UN) BUT we still want our own sovereignty.

Now 78 years later the head of that body (UN) that was set up in 1945 for the purpose of not having a third world war, is saying the world/nations are walking right into WW3.

So, now it is like, 'what how can that be Mr. chief UN guy...we thought the UN was supposed to keep that from happening again, what the heck have we nations been $upporting it these past 78 years.

Chief says because all you nations that joined and have been $upporting the UN's existence as an organization, you ALL still wanted your own sovereignty....and as long as that is the case nations are always going to fight about borders/land/territory, etc. Fight about environment/pollution/climate, etc. Fight about human rights/religious beliefs, etc. Just look at the so-called 'United' States, they are not 'United'. Look at how they endlessly fight against each other as a D and a R. They should be called the 'Divided' States. Likewise, that is the state the nations are in "the world has never been more threatened or more divided', we need 'solidarity among nations.' Nations need to join together as a whole(one) in order to have peace. That is what George, Walter, Ted, and heck even the pope has been saying for years.

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

I respond where I see fit for the benefit of honest readers. I’m not under any obligation to reply or to stop replying at any time for any reason and subject to change without notice.

Do you see fit to reply and choose to respond to these two questions for the benefit of honest readers...

I am asking you to form an opinion yourself based on what you heard/seen from the FACTS I presented and based on what you know about the UN and tell me what do you think would become of the UN if WW3 does occur? And based on the FACTS that I presented what is there you find to be nonfactual/superstition/conspiracy?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

First, you must be a very weak person with no self-control. You said two different times:

Hence I will not be humouring you further on the matter.

I’m not going to entertain further discussion about the ‘new world order’ nonsense.

And yet you responded back again after having made each statement.

Anyway, since you did let's take what you just said:

Don’t pretend that the notion that it’s a conspiracy theory is some novel idea I’ve just come up with on my own.

Whenever people don't want to talk about 'FACTS' they immediately refer to it as being a 'conspiracy'.

I have asked you what do you think would become of the UN if WW3 does occur?

I have asked that with you considering ONLY the facts that I supplied. These include what the current UN chief said recently. What Walter said. What George said. What Ted said. Also, in considering the League came after WW1. The UN after WW2.

If we were in court and you and I were on the jury, the judge would inform us that we could only consider the information presented there at that time and not to think about and consider anything that we heard or knew before coming into the court room.

With that said, I don't care about what you think you know or what others say about a New World Order, etc. I am talking about the FACTS that I presented. You are hearing what is being said firsthand from the sources themselves. I am asking you to form an opinion yourself based on what you hear and based on what you know about the UN and tell me what do you think would become of the UN if WW3 does occur?

And based on the FACTS that I presented what is there you find to be superstition/conspiracy?

207

Scholar and Fisherman

by Jorden in

scholar and fisherman, i started this thread because i didn't want to highjack the one in regard to 588/568.. i just wanted to ask if you were both current active jw's that believe the jw's beliefs?.

do y'all believe the gb are the f&ds?

if the answers are no, then why do y'all defend so passionately the date 607?

Jorden

You have shown that the JW interpretation of the 42 months is obviously wrong, which is good. But then you have associated it with an alternative superstition, which benefits no one.

Yes, I have shown that the JW interpretation of the 42 months is wrong. So, there is no reason for you to continue to engage with debating 607. If anything, switch to asking them to defend what I laid out. Because the way it stands now if their explanation of the 42-months and Rev 11:15 is in error then that along proves that 1914 is wrong and therefore no need to prove or disprove 607.

But as for you and what you say about me in referring to the UN...

First, when you speak to a JW about 607 and the 70 years, etc... do you do not refer to Scriptures and WTS publications in order to show their nonsense?

Example:

[Jeremiah 25: 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and THESE NATIONS will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 ‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah,]
[8-1-81 WT p. 27-28 – “The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.”]
[Isaiah’s Prophecy 1 p. 253-254 par. 21 – …the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination…]
[10-1-11 WT – According to secular chronology, the Babylonians dominated the land of ancient Judah and Jerusalem for some 70 years, from about 609 B.C.E. until 539 B.C.E. when the capital city of Babylon was captured.]

Likewise, if I am speaking to a JW about the 42-months, wild beast, etc...I have to refer to the Scriptures and WTS publications that they have attached to the wild beast, etc.

__________

When it comes to what I have said and asked to you about the UN what about it do you find to be a superstition/conspiracy?

Fact is that the League of Nations was created after WW1.

Fact is the United Nations was created after WW2.

Fact the current UN chief said as recently as 2/6/23 that the world is heading into WW3.

Fact he also said to all 193 member states "to wake up and realise that solidarity is the only way out of disaster."

solidarity - unity (as of a group or class) that produces or is based on community of interests, objectives, and standards

unity - the state of being united or joined as a whole

Fact is this was said as recent as 5-5-23.

Fact is George Bush in talking about the UN and the vision for it he said; 'when we are successful, and we will be'.

Fact is Watler spoke about the nations giving up their sovereignty in support of the UN and he said that that would be a bitter pill to swallow for some. (I advise you to listen to ALL of his clip and listen closely to EVERYTHING he says.)

Fact is Ted Turner said what he did here and he gave $1 billion to create the United Nations Foundation, a public charity to broaden U.S. support for the UN.

Given what is said by George, Water and Ted and given that the current UN chief (2023) speaks of the world heading toward WW3 and says "solidarity is the only way out of disaster."

Why is it that you insist on accusing me of pushing some conspiracy/superstition for asking what do you think would become of the UN if WW3 does occur?

I do not expect you to answer me on this because the fact is you cannot based on what you have already said:

Hence I will not be humouring you further on the matter.