Posts by KalebOutWest

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

Peacefulpete:

Good question.The narratives in a law book are not bedtime stories.

For instance, one might come across a leash law in a law book. Then the book reads:

One the morning of November 7, 1972, one Irene Hart took her dog, Pepper. A female poodle, outside to do it's morning business. The mailman came earlier on his route that day, and Pepper, who usually was inside during the mail's usual delivery time, became aroused and ran towards the mail courier. Startled, the mailman fell back into the neighborhood street, causing one Mr. Robert J. Peterson, 37, to steer his car into a street sign, hitting his head on his steering wheel....

Stories in law books aren't there with all their gruesome details to entertain the readers. They are there to demonstrate the reason for the laws or their application.

It is supposed to be similar with the Torah and the other books of Jewish Scripture, which were read as supplements during the year to the parasha of each Torah reading in the liturgy.

I personally don't necessarily agree with this view all the time or with what is written in the texts.

I don't think my Jewish people were any more special than any other culture or "chosen" or have a "true religion."

I don't believe the Bible is inspired. I think some of our stories are violent and horrific. Some are okay.

There is wisdom in every culture, and horrific and violent stories in some other myths from other ancient people too.

I don't recommend violence from anywhere, regardless of where it comes from.

Jews are NOT special. Just because I am Jewish doesn't mean anything. I just know this stuff because I went through the torture of years of Hebrew school and then taught it. I had no control of being born to Jews.

I am an exJW, you guys talk about the Bible, so I talk about what I know.

If I knew about Mickey Mouse, and that was the subject. I would ttalk. But we're not talking Disney, and that's not what I spent a decade studying under a rabbi who never used my name but only called me: "Hey, Sephardic Boy."

It just so happens that the Watchtower is based on the Bible and I was born to Sephardic Jews--and was there for a short time in a Kingdom Hall. Jews get formal education in their culture, usually for those 10 years, so I share what I know.

It does not mean I approve of these stories, believe in the supernatural, believe in the God of the Bible, pray, etc. I don't.

But, yes. The rabbis believe these stories teach mitzvah.

The Jewish Study Bible, published by the Jewish Publication Society, explains this in the footnotes.

Old woman in a shoe? Oy vey. I wish.

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

Rattigan350:

It is ridiculous that people would think that he would burn her.

Yes...and no.

As I stated in my post, Judaism itself has no consensus on what exactly happened to Seila, Jeptha's daughter.

But that may be the precise point.

Hebrew writing is more complicated and complex than previously thought or imagined by the scholars of the 1800s who developed some of the first critical practices and methods. We have since learned that if something is left open for questioning, it is generally not without purpose.

The Book of Job does this in a very blatant manner. Job spends the entire book asking why is he having to suffer, begging to hear the answer from God. When God does reply, the answer is essentially: "You tell me, if you're so smart!" In other words, why claim that something is broken if you didn't make it in the first place--it might be working exactly as designed. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it needs fixing.

The same type of story-telling might be employed here as well. It's not about the daughter. It's about Jeptha and his vow, and what we can learn from it--namely doing stupid things from thinking we are "all that and a bag of chips," as it is often said.

We often think we know it all and we are big stuff, and because of pride we get stupid--and it costs lives...even our own.

The story is not historical, so arguing over the details is falling into the very trap that the story warns about, namely thinking you can know it all.

The Watchtower tries to make it sound a certain way since they believe in a supernatural deity, a personal God that is righteous and would never allow or accept human sacrifice. They also believe that the Bible is a historical document. If it isn't, then their religion falls apart. So they argue for ways to make it sound reasonable.

I promise you that the Jewish world knows the story is composed of folklore, legend and myth. Even if some of the elements may have kernels of history, the story is a legend. Nobody could die falling apart piece by piece by piece and be buried in various towns and cities until there was nothing left of them. The reason for this death is to imply that Jeptha cut up Seila in this manner and God had repaid him in the same way. This is mythological.

It doesn't matter what happened to the daughter. Stories in the Biblical narrative are about YOU. What does this prevent you from acting like? How does it make you better?

Are you supposed to learn from what happened to Seila? Or is it really the example of Jeptha's rash vow wherein the lesson is to be found?

If you concentrate on the daughter, you have missed everything.

92

Jephthah's Daughter

by cantleave in

i have read somewhere that jephthah's daughter did not really go into temple service but was a victim of ritual sacrifice.

the bible says that after weeping over her virginity that the maidens would visit her annually.

how could they visit her if she was killed?.

KalebOutWest

In Judaism, the account of Jephthah is considered a combination of legend and mythology. Judges is part of the Deuteronomistic History, compiled centuries after the supposed events (likely during the 7th-6th centuries BCE). The stories may reflect historical kernels but are highly shaped by theological and political agendas of the day.

One of the main Jewish theological theories is that the tale of Jepthah's daughter, known as Seila in Jewish tradition, is a feminine counterpart or moral reflection to the Abrahamic narrative of the Binding of Isaac. This is preserved in the composition known as Biblical Antiquities, composed by the anonymous author often referred to as Pseudo-Philo, writing somewhere between 25–135 CE or just after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. The author reimagines and expands upon narratives from the Hebrew Scriptures from Genesis through 1 Samuel, and discusses the story of Seila in chapter 39-40.

Whereas Genesis displays Abraham's inaction to God's command to offer Issac as a sacrifice in the shadow of a debate for the lives of the people of Sodom, most of whom Abraham had never met, the narrative of Seila in BA seems to try to redeem God's inaction in the Book of Judges when Jephthah offers up his daughter.

The point is that Seila is considered offered as a literal sacrifice in much of Jewish thought, so much so that the Masoretic Text seems to describe Jephthah's death in Judges in a providential manner, one that the New World Translation rendering committee (or at least the current revision group) seems to be uncomfortable with.

While there is still some considerable debate in Judaism as to exactly what the narrative in Judges is exactly describing--whether this is a literal sacrifice or not (it is still considered a legend, no matter what)--what happened to Jepthah for his rash vow is quite clear. According to the Hebrew Bible (and the way it is understood by Jewish readers and scholars), Jepthath became quite ill, died, and lost many of his limbs as a result of this divine punishment. This led to his various limbs being buried in various locations, which is why the text at Judges 12:7 reads that Jephthah was

buried in the cities of Gilead.--Italics added.

The 1984 edition of the NWT does indeed note this in the footnotes as the reading of the Masoretic Text, but the newly updated "silver sword" has no references whatsoever, showing no alternative readings here. This is particularly odd since this is the preferred Jewish reading and the footnote reading of the NRSVue. (The text can at least be read "he is buried in [one of] the towns of Gilead," but the word for "town" or "city" is indeed plural, and the tradition behind his manner of death is one of the interesting Jewish tropes behind the folklore.) Removing all notices to the plural here is curious.

It has also been the subject of art for centuries.

Behold--"The Sacrifice of Jephthah's Daughter" by Thomas Blanchet, from the Museum of Fine Arts of Lyon, dates from the 17th century. Depicted is an actual sacrifice similar to that of the Binding of Isaac.

____

Legends and Myths

Are legends and myths true in Jewish thought? True, yes. Fact, no. For instance, the Torah narrative that God created the world in 6 days is considered a "myth." It is also considered true, in Judaism, that God created the world. But myths use metaphor, not history, to teach. So it is not fact, that is in the Jewish theological or historical sense, that God created the universe in 6 literal days. There are differences between myths, legends, folklore, and history too. The Bible has very little history. In fact, only around the events of the Babylonian Exile does it touch upon history, but it rarely records it. The Hebrew Bible is generally concerned with religion and mostly liturgy--which is probably the most important of all.

The Christian Bible is concerned mostly with catechesis. It does contain some history, but mainly in the epistles and then coincidental, mostly when the author does not intend to do so. In the New Testament there is no "true" or "fact" in the Hebrew Bible sense but a concern for what Christian writers believe is "truth" or salvific enlightenment.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

KalebOutWest

A footnote for anyone who may want to know what I actually was asked to do for the translation of the Abbey Psalter--Hebrew poetry does not rhyme, but is instead written with a regular rhythm.each prayer and psalm has a different one, and the origal Grail Psalter, which this is a revision of, tries to capture this in order to make Gregorian chant easier. They wanted to ask a Hebrew liturgy user what this was like for them.

There was no way to preserve what was in the Hebrew, but the English in the Grail (and the revision) does represent what the Hebrew does at times. The translators tried to makes sure they did this.

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

KalebOutWest

aqwsed12345:

Accusing a Catholic of being a "Jehovah’s Witness at heart" is both misleading and ironic.

If the shoe fits.

Being of Crypto-Jewish background, I went to Catholic school during the day and Hebrew school afterwards. I still have family members who did not join the synagogue during what many Crypto-Jews refer to as "the Great Return" era of the late 1960s-70s. So I know what I'm looking at.

After leaving my JWs aunt's home upon growing up and had returned to Judaism, I did some IT work for a Roman Catholic diocese. I was asked by a member of the translating team of The Abbey Psalms and Canticles, which if I am not mistaken is the main Psalter in use in the English-speaking work for the liturgy in Catholicism. It has been employed in India, the UK and will replace what is being currently used in the USA by 2027 in the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. My work has not merely been in Judaism. I am dripping in Catholicism. I know a good and rotten Catholic when I see one.

When I taught religion for those two decades in my life, it was not just Judaism. It included Christianity and Catholicism.

Catholics would not have their Bible or Tradition if it were not for the Jews, and we Jews work shoulder-to-shoulder with Catholics in peace today. It wasn't always like that.

But people like you are an example of those who do not follow your own Church teaching, people who do not read current Church and doctrinal explanations from the Vatican. You like to quote things with walls and walls of words because you cannot be a living example in your real life.

The Internet is a world of fantasy for people who cannot make it in the real world. It is easy to write your made-up crap from your armchair. I've been a teacher for a very long time. I could spot liars from a mile away. I had to grade papers for a living. I had to deal with cheaters. It is what I did.

But you are too easy to spot. You are not fooling anyone.

Bad Catholic. Bad.

Go to confession. Tonight is Holy Thursday. How will you be able to even take Communion after writing these horrible things? It's the Holy Triduum of all things. I'm a Jew, and I know this.

Bad Catholic, bad!

We all see through you.

Go home.

Bad dog!

228

The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity

by slimboyfat in

rowan williams, the former archbishop of canterbury gave an interesting answer to the somewhat stark question, what’s the point of us existing?

as a christian, my starting point is that we exist because the most fundamental form of activity, energy, call it what you like, that is there, is love.

that is, it’s a willingness that the other should be.

KalebOutWest

aqwsed12345:

To reject the Fathers out of hand is to cut oneself off from the living memory of the early Church.

I love how Catholics can demand this of Protestants but then reject the binding authority of Oral Tradition that the Orthodox Jews demand, which is the exact same principle.

Makes me laugh at the cognitive dissonance. Still a Jehovah's Witness at heart. Just changed the label but practicing the same habits with different doctrines.

19

1975 debacle

by Gman2001 in

did the borg ever apologize for 1975?.

KalebOutWest

Did the Borg ever apologize for 1975?

Yes.

We are sorry that the world's not ending shows us up as being sorry sons of bitches. We are still Jehovah's Witnesses, but we have witnessed the fact that he isn't backing up anything we say. For this we are far more sorry than you can possibly imagine.--Your Neighborhood Borg

20

Chosen

by Gman2001 in

how exactly did jehovah come down to earth in 1919....look around at all the religions....and choose the bible students?

.

KalebOutWest

Oompa Loompa Doompadee Doo

I've got another puzzle for you

Oompa Loompa Doompadah Dee

If you are wise you'll listen to me

How did Jehovah choose the Watchtower

Ensuring Rutherford so much power?

It wasn't truth coming down on high

But rather that they had learned to lie!

Oompa Loompa Doompadee Dah

If you don't learn from them, you will go far

You will live in happiness, too

Like the Oompa Loompa Doompadee Doo!

20

Chosen

by Gman2001 in

how exactly did jehovah come down to earth in 1919....look around at all the religions....and choose the bible students?

.

KalebOutWest

How exactly did Jehovah come down to earth in 1919....look around at all the religions....and choose the bible students?

By means of Willy Wonka's Flying Glass Elevator, accompanied by the singing Oompa Loompas.

Duh.

18

Why worship a God that does not help!

by Witness 007 in

so god let 10 million people die in world war 2 but was too busy to help....what kind of diety does this!

if i was god i would have done something .

KalebOutWest

AnnaNana:

Thank you for your posts, but my post was asking rhetorical questions.

In otherwords, the questions are not meant to be replied to.

The post is meant to make one think about what one personally believes and the OP's take on "God." It is one created by Western culture and nominal Christian thought, though often not shared by Judaism or other Eastern peoples that have different god concepts.

The concept is based on the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, namely: "Ask and ye shall receive." This isn't the concept of the God of Abraham that the Jews have. T'fila, the concept of "prayer" in Judaism, revolves around reciting Scripture and words of wisdom that center around accepting reality and God's purpose for life, not making personal requests and expecting God to fulfill them.

Other people, like some atheists and agnostics who might have different views shaped by disappointments with religion. My point was that we can't center or be defined on what we do or don't believe on the God-question, but we can define our life now. For regardless of our beliefs, we are alive now, and we can change things for the better with or without religion. So stop complaining about what's wrong and fix what's wrong.