Notably the Governor has made clear he was not responsible for the confrontation nor supports it. The way it plays out in my head, Evan was talking too loudly and someone complained. The troopers and the Nat guard leader walked across the room to tell him to end his broadcast. From there it escalated. My takeaway is, when people in uniform tell you to move along, do it. You will not win the argument. You can complain about it afterward.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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What's going on in Ohio?
by Bartolomeo inreporter evan lambert arrested by ohio police live on train derailment for doing what big media won't do: ask questions about toxic chemicals that poison water and air.
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the largest "democracy" in the world that arrests journalists for simple questions.. imagine if it had happened in russia what they would have said.... https://twitter.com/thethe1776/status/1625202284144791552.
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How tall was Goliath?
by joey jojo ingoliath was a big dude, 6 cubits and a span, or about 9 feet 9 inches.
the septuagint version of the bible and the dead sea scrolls, on the other hand, both state his height as 4 cubits and a span, or 6 feet 9 inches.. his armour weighed a bit over 40 kg, about the same weight as a modern soldier would carry.
his spear sounds impressively heavy at 600 shekels, however , this is only about 6 kg (13 lbs), easily carried by a man of average strength, let alone someone with training.. the difference lies in whether we should believe the masoretic version of the bible, or the septuagint.. the masoretic text was written about 1000 years later than the septuagint and it is what the new world translation and a lot of protestant bibles are based on.. although the septuagint was accepted by 1st century jews, it is believed that medieval jews were not happy with the septuagint, as it lent weight to the argument that pointed to jesus as the messiah and they wanted to distinguish the jewish tradition from christianity.. jesus and other new testament writers (whoever they were) quoted the septuagint.. in an effort to support his own world view and to distance himself from the catholic church, martin luther chose the masoretic text over the septuagint on which to base his translation, which is ironic as the masoretic text was written, partly to separate itself from christianity.. when someone says they 'believe the bible', or, they 'live their life on what the bible says'- can that person really explain how they can trust the history and process of whatever bible they believe in came to be?.
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peacefulpete
Any chance I get to quote Leolaia's hard work I do:
The book of Samuel (originally 1-2 Samuel formed a single book) had a very complex literary history and the Goliath problem is just one facet of this history. The MT version that is the basis of modern translations is but one edition of this book; the LXX represents another ancient edition that was much shorter, and the Dead Sea Scrolls represent several other editions, some closer to the LXX and some closer to the MT. When the many versions are compared with each other, it is apparent that the book was reworked several times in antiquity.
It is generally accepted that the story of David and Goliath in 1 Samuel 17 MT is a relatively late reworking of an earlier story of a confrontation between David and an originally unnamed Philistine. The oldest recension of the LXX omits 17:12-31, 17:55-18:5, 18:17-19, and this material has a different literary style than the other verses and introduces David as a new figure entirely (cf. v. 12-13 especially) -- suggesting that the interpolated material came from an originally independent story about David (cf. also the doublet between v. 4-9 and v. 23). In this material, the opponent is simply known as "the Philistine" and only in v. 23 is he identified with Goliath of Gath in a gloss that rudely interrupts the sentence: "While he was talking to them, the warrior (His name was Goliath, the Philistine from Gath) came up from the Philistine ranks and made his usual speech, and David heard it". The more original form of the story in 1 Samuel 17:1-11, 32-54 also refers to the opponent only as "the Philistine" except for another awkward (and extravagent) gloss in v. 4-7 which separates the warrior's "stepping out from the ranks" in v. 4 from his "taking his stand" in v. 8:
Probable original version: "One of their warriors stepped out from the Philistine ranks and he took his stand in front of the ranks of Israel" (v. 4a, 8a).
Interpolated version: "One of their warriors stepped out from the Philistine ranks (His name was Goliath from Gath, he was 4 cubits and one span tall. On his head was a bronze helmet and he wore a breastplate of scale-armor; the breastplate weighed five thousand shekels of bronze. He had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin across his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred shekels of iron. A shield-bearer walked in front of him) and he took his stand in front of the ranks of Israel" (v. 4-8a)
This gloss predates the interpolation of v. 21-31, 55ff, as it is found in both the MT and in the LXX, although the warrior's height has been reworked in the various editions, from 4 cubits in 4QSam a and the original LXX used by Josephus, to 5 cubits in the later text of the LXX, to 6 cubits in the MT. In other words, the oldest form of the story consisted of 17:1-4a, 8-11, 32-54 and then the gloss in v. 4b-7 was added (which identified the anonymous Philistine warrior with the famous Goliath), and then in a version that MT later represents, material from an originally independent version of the same story (v. 12-31, 55ff) were added to the text of 1 Samuel 17.
The writer who added the gloss in v. 4b-7 would have then took the name "Goliath" from the story in 2 Samuel 21:19 which says that Goliath was slain by "Elhanan, the son of Jair, the Bethlehemite". The extravagent description of Goliath's armor would then have been inspired by such descriptions as those in 2 Samuel 21:15, which describes another Philistine warrior's spear as "weighing three hundred shekels of bronze", and the description of Goliath's spear in v. 19 as having a "shaft like a weavers' beam". The fact that the hero is described as a "Bethlehemite" is also a point of contact with the Davidic story in 1 Samuel 17 as well. But the text of 2 Samuel 21:19 is problematic as well. The MT refers to Elhanan the son of Jair-Oregim whereas the parallel in 1 Chronicles 20:5 (the earliest witness to the text of 2 Samuel) refers to Elhanan the son of Jair. It is clear here that a copyist duplicated the word for "weavers" ('rgym) later in the same verse and misplaced it right after "Jair" (y`ry). Thus "Jair" and not "Jair-Oregim" (which is an odd name in Hebrew) is the name that occurs in 1 Chronicles and the older form of the LXX (which gives the name as Iare). It is in the later (hexaplaric) version of the LXX where the copyist error appears in the form Ariórgim (< Hebrew y`ry 'rgym), and since the late LXX text assimilates itself generally to the proto-MT text, this shows that the copyist error that produced the MT form of the text had already occurred by the third century AD.
Meanwhile, the version in 1 Chronicles has a copyist error of its own. In 2 Samuel 21:19, regardless of whether you consult the MT or LXX, Elhanan was a Bethlehemite (bytlchmy) who killed Goliath ('t-glyt), but 1 Chronicles 20:5 states that Elhanan killed Lahmi ('t-lchmy) who was the brother of Goliath ('chy glyt). The Chronicler here mistakes the word byt- (Beth-) as the inflection for direct object 't- and thus takes the remainder of the name bytlchmy (i.e. -lchmy) as a proper name, i.e. Lahmi. Meanwhile, the 't- inflection in the source was mistaken as the word for "brother" ('ch), making the Philistine the brother of Goliath, and not Goliath himself. Many of the Chronicler's departures from the Deuteronomistic History are ideological in nature, and there may be a motivation here to resolve the contradiction in 2 Samuel 21 by making Elhanan kill the brother of Goliath and not Goliath himself. Such a motivation presupposes that David had already been identified as Goliath's slayer. That would mean that the interpolation of v. 4b-7 in 1 Samuel 17 (which is found in all extant versions of the text) predates the composition of 1-2 Chronicles, and thus had already occurred before the fourth century BC. Or it could be that the interpolator of 1 Samuel followed the Chronicler in allowing himself to identify the slayer of Goliath as someone other than Elhanan (who for the Chronicler was not the slayer of Goliath). It is noteworthy that the LXX version of 2 Samuel 21 (which should go back to the third or second century BC) had an underlying btylchmy in its Vorlage, as it designates Jair as ho Béthleemités "the Bethlehemite", and there is no evidence anywhere in the textual tradition of 2 Samuel itself along the lines of "Lahmi the brother of Goliath". So here is an example of a text paralleled in two works (1-2 Chronicles being literarily dependent on 1-2 Samuel) which is corrupted in both.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
Jeffro...I 'll be brief in commenting on your 3.5 year span of Rev referring to 66-70. The writer of Rev was actively sourcing OT for parallels and symbols. The events under Antiochus (the blasphemer who called himself a god) became the archetype for a host of antichrist figures. Revelation has Rome in focus and its foremost blasphemer Nero.
Rev 13 uses the Daniel motif (1260 days , 42 months 3.5 year) in reference to the time Nero Redivivus will be limited to.
In (11:2) it's used as emphasizing the limits of the time of domination of the 'Holy city' and persecution of Christians until their death.
In (12:6) it is used in a different context, the woman being taken care of for 1260 days. Again, here it has become a placeholder metaphor for a period of waiting.
In other words, it has become thoroughly detached from any temporal meaning but rather has become a metaphor for limited time.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
The writers of Daniel, Baruch, Enoch, Revelation etc. and the Gospels naturally had a narrow focus on recent events. Their world was unraveling, and they desired and anticipated divine intervention. Typological interpretation was the rage. Parallels were perceived and pronounced. A review of the works from the late 2nd temple period reveals the strenuous effort to understand their world by looking at the past. Even a past that never really was.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
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Gedaliah was assassinated and many fled fearing reprisals.
The Persians then after conquering the region appoint Nehemiah as a vassal governor with a wave of immigrants to Jerusalem.
The Greeks under Alexander then conquered the region
The Ptolemaic empire then followed in governing Jerusalem.
The Seleucids then took control under Antiochus the Great. Eventually under Antiochus IV again destroy the city, it's walls and loots the temple. Sets up the alter to Zeus in the temple.
Then the Maccabean brothers conquered the city and region forming the Hasmonean kingdom. This is the celebration of Hanukah as for about 100 years Jerusalem is ruled by Jews.
Herod the Great, a Jewish convert, then conquers the city made vassal King under the Romans. he rebuilds the walls and Temple to a scale never seen before.
After a series of rebellions Jerusalem is again sacked and partially destroyed by the Romans, temple looted gain.
The Herodian dynasty continues for about 30 years with a return to normalcy.
Hadrian decides to rebuild the city and limits the Jewish cult practices. The Bar Kokhba (135) revolt happens with Hadrian killing about a half million Jews. Banishes Jews from the city.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
The only explanation of Gentile times must refer to the period of time from Gentile rule over Jerusalem until the parousia
According to the OT, Egypt sacked and conquered Jerusalem around 925 BCE, made a vassal state,
About 850 it was conquered by the Assyrians and still a vassal state.
Shortly later it was sacked by the Philistines and Arabs and looted. and killed most of the Kings family.
Hazael king of the Arameans conquered Jerusalem about 20 years later and looted again and killed all the prices.
About 50 years later Israel King Jehoash sacks Jerusalem over throws the king and destroyed its walls again.
About a hundred years later the land was conquered by the Assyrians and Jerusalem was still a vassal state paying tribute.
Then around a hundred years later the Babylonians took the city and hauled off the king.
The vassal king Zedekiah rebelled about 10 years later and the city was again conquered and walls torn down and a new vassal Gedaliah put into place. The next 5 years were prosperous with a new optimism attracting many Jews back who had fled earlier. (Jer 40:9-14).
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Daniel Made Simple!
by Leolaia inthe large horn on the goat is the first king of greece (8:21), obviously alexander the great.
after his death, alexander?s kingdom was divided among four of his generals (8:22).
the high priest), and further causes the daily sacrifices to cease, and the sanctuary to be defiled (8:11).
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peacefulpete
Resurrection of a fine thread.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
Would you be so kind as pointing me to a historical or reference work where Antiochus is responsible for destruction of the city and the sanctuary. If so, then I’ll also apply it to Antiochus.
Vidqun....Daniel is a blow by blow description of events of the Antiochus "the madman". Yes they destroyed the city, even took down the walls. The city and walls were rebuilt.
1 Macc opens with: 20 After subduing Egypt, Antiochus turned back in the one hundred forty-third year and went up against Israel and came to Jerusalem with a strong force. 21 He arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its utensils. 22 He took also the table for the bread of the Presence, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple; he stripped it all off. 23 He took the silver and the gold and the costly vessels; he took also the hidden treasures that he found. 24 Taking them all, he went into his own land.
He shed much blood
and spoke with great arrogance.
25 Israel mourned deeply in every community;
26 rulers and elders groaned;
young women and young men became faint;
the beauty of the women faded.
27 Every bridegroom took up the lament;
she who sat in the bridal chamber was mourning.28 Even the land trembled for its inhabitants,
and all the house of Jacob was clothed with shame.The Occupation of Jerusalem
29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him, but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. 31 He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls. 32 They took captive the women and children and seized the livestock.
2 Macc 5: Antiochus, he thought the whole country of Judea was in revolt, and he became as furious as a wild animal. So he left Egypt and took Jerusalem by storm, 12 giving his men orders to cut down without mercy everyone they met and to slaughter anyone they found hiding in the houses. 13 They murdered everyone—men and women, boys and girls; even babies were butchered. 14 Three days later Jerusalem had lost 80,000 people: 40,000 killed in the attack and at least that many taken away to be sold as slaves.
15 But Antiochus was still not satisfied. He even dared to enter the holiest Temple in all the world, guided by Menelaus, who had become a traitor both to his religion and to his people. 16 With his filthy and unholy hands, Antiochus swept away the sacred objects of worship and the gifts which other kings had given to increase the glory and honor of the Temple. 1
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
For what it's worth...The author of Luke's revisions/omissions are suggestive of his understanding of Mark and Matt.
First, the author of Luke clearly did not interpret Mark or Matt's expression of "tribulation" as referring to events thousands of years in the future. He revised his sources to say : There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. His understanding would not seem strange if it were not for the Adventist spin we are familiar with. Clearly, he understood the "tribulation" of Mark and "great tribulation" of Matt as referring to the Roman suppression of Jewish rebellion in Jerusalem.
Notably, he dropped entirely the lines that follow (Matt 24:21b,22) that said the days would be 'shortened' on account of 'the elect' (Christian Jews) as this clearly did no longer fit his time of writing, a generation later.
Another alteration he made was removing the "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." in Matt (24:29). Instead, he dropped the line entirely.
He also adds a new intertextual typology from Tobit not found in his sources Mark or Matt. He introduces a delay, an 'appointed time' needing to be fulfilled before the restoration. In Tobit the writer uses those words for the period between the return to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple, which was decades long. Rather than see it as a weakness of faith he saw it as providential. The writer of Luke, it seems, saw a parallel in his day. Living decades after 70 he saw the Jerusalem largely resume as a city but the Temple still in ruins as well, but more importantly no Son of Man.
Luke also adds (21:27,28) the line that 'when you see the Son of Man coming, know your deliverance is near'. This is not in Mark or Matt. He seems at pains to temporally distance the Jerusalem events from the deliverance here again. He has introduced a delay "appointed time" and erased words that suggested the two were very near in time. Here he temporally links the Son of Man's coming with imminent deliverance.
Especially interesting is his seeming omission of Matts 24:10-12, 14. This is likely because his copy of Matt did not yet have those lines. They also speak to a later generation of Christians whose disappointment had made them grow cold. It also ends with the anachronistic prediction of the Gospel being preached in the whole world. These lines are almost certainly a later gloss, as they would have been useful for Luke if he had seen it, given his agenda of explaining the delay.
I guess that's enough for now.
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Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
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peacefulpete
It's not a simple knot to untie. Many factors complicate it. The first century reinterpretation of Dan 9 as referring to Rome, like the contemporary work 4 Ezra. The author of Luke's own personal amendments of Matt and Mark including his reinterpretation of Tobit 14:5: “But God will have mercy on them again. God will bring them back to the land of Israel, and they will rebuild the house, though not like the first one, until the appointed time has been fulfilled. Afterward, they will all return from the places where they are captives and build Jerusalem in grandeur.
So.... what we have is a revision of reinterpretations of an apocryphal and a pseudographical work that failed being made to apply to a world 1900 years later.