Slimboy...If you were responding to my comment, I was just mentioning the SDA growth as a response to the doctrinal stance. It didn't make a whit of difference. These churches have survived the vulnerable stages and are here to stay. Those who envision a collapse of the WT over 1914 do not have history in their favor. These groups plod along making slight adjustments but have essentially created their own subcultures within the societies they exist. I know ancient religions have passed but usually because the societies they existed in were erased or subsumed by political means. If America and it's allies were conquered by Russia for a modern example, the WT, SDA and LDS would likely disappear, not really wishing for that to happen. lol
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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peacefulpete
The SDA example is perhaps suggestive of what the result would be if they altered their doctrine. I found an article from 1989 that 'resolved' the failure of the end to appear in the "generation" of the 1833 falling stars etc. Many SDA's had found ways to reinterpret the word 'generation' through the years without arriving at a satisfying permanent solution. The 1989 article simply offered that prophecy was "dynamic" and God, while remaining unchanged in his determination, can alter his specific plan at will. They used "seeming" failed prophecies in the OT as examples of this. In this way the prediction remains on the books but becomes unfalsifiable/undisprovable. Their growth since then hasn't been unusually good nor any worse than the decades before 1989. They presently claim to have about 21 million members.
The WT overlapping generations approach to resolve the same issue seems less efficient. It is similarly unfalsifiable in that it can perpetuate indefinitely, but it awkwardly strains the wording of that one passage and leaves one feeling unsatisfied and confused. The SDA approach IMO is functionally superior, in that it appears to be taking a 'rational' flexible approach to prophecy as a whole. Much harder to argue against.
I don't see much really changing no matter what they eventually do. I know I've said it many times, but IMO doctrine just differentiates one church group from other churches it's less important for recruitment or retention of membership. That is the result of a welcoming sense of community and group identity. True sometimes specific unusual doctrine becomes inseparable from identity, (like Armstrong's WWC of God with Sabbath and faith healing) and a change would precipitates a serious loss of membership. For the WT it might be their 'earth paradise' doctrine or their ant-trinitarianism. But peripheral stuff like this can be accommodated easily as the numerous previous changes in the WT teaching about 1914/18 over the years has shown.
Again, IMO, they need to address this festering wound. Either the approach of the SDA would work or some other open ended rational sounding way to diminish the importance of the 607/1914 dates is necessary.
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Bit of Watchtower History
by vienne inprobably some of you read uncle b's history blog.
the article at the end of this link was contributed to show rutherford's activity in britain, especially his appearances at royal albert hall.. https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2022/12/the-royal-albert-hall.html.
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peacefulpete
Too bad the blog doesn't include the speeches so people can learn what was said at those lectures. The failed explicit prophesies don't age well.
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21
Keep telling yourself that!
by Lost in the fog inin the latest copy of the elders textbook someone kindly made available to us on this website, i see that "independently organized meetings for spiritual feeding" are still not allowed.
no wonder because independent research would let the scales fall from the eyes.. the gb still insisting that they are guided by the (always lower case) holy spirit and the bible!!
not that the rank and file members need the bible or holy spirit themselves because they are fed through meetings, conventions, assemblies, jw broadcasting and the publications.
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peacefulpete
Interesting, Some newboy GB must have agreed to that then got overruled.
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Keep telling yourself that!
by Lost in the fog inin the latest copy of the elders textbook someone kindly made available to us on this website, i see that "independently organized meetings for spiritual feeding" are still not allowed.
no wonder because independent research would let the scales fall from the eyes.. the gb still insisting that they are guided by the (always lower case) holy spirit and the bible!!
not that the rank and file members need the bible or holy spirit themselves because they are fed through meetings, conventions, assemblies, jw broadcasting and the publications.
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peacefulpete
About 45 years ago we had the idea of getting together with other young people and prepare for the WT study. We did it a few weeks with pizza or snacks afterward. The CO put it to an end to it with heavy condemnation suggesting it would lead to apostasy. lol
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why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
The Israelites made a golden calf and called it a festival to Jehovah..
Yahweh is often represented as bull god, in both the OT and iconography. The Exodus story isn't objecting to the bull per se but the idol. You must remember that these stories were compiled and redacted to serve a purpose. This one is an anti-idolatry tale that appears to be specifically responding to the Jeroboam use of the bull idols in Dan and Bethel. Ironically it likely preserves the pre-exilic tradition of depicting Yahweh as a or with a bull/ox.
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why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
enough...we all understand what you are saying because we all would have agreed with you at some point. Seeing things a new way takes time and the right bits of information to fall into the right places. For most Christians since the NT celebrates the birth of Jesus with heavenly choruses and gift giving they feel it is appropriate to do the same. Non Christians appreciate the best aspects of the Jesus tradition and embrace the charity and joy.
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39
why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
It didn't "appear over" Jerusalem at all. A star was seen by magi in the east and was interpreted as hailing the birth of the King of the Jews. They went to the capital to honor him. The story assumes you know that the whole world was awaiting the Messiah and had interpreted Numbers 24:17 the way the author and many Jews did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Prophecy
I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
In the story they proceed to Bethlehem (to again"fulfill prophecy")
Their efforts were assisted by the star now somehow appearing over the house. It's a bit of a stretch of course but that is legend making. This allowed them to give gold and frankincense to "fulfill" another prophecy (Is 60:3,6)
“Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your radiance…. They will carry gold and frankincense and proclaim the praises of the Lord
The whole classic Herod killing the baby boys is another typological "prophecy" from the Moses story. To have it 'fulfilled' required the Magi go to Jerusalem first.
The Egypt "prophecy" is likewise made possible by the mention of the family fleeing there,
so to the subsequent moving to "Nazar"eth to fulfill the "prophecy" that he would be a "Nazar"ene. (perhaps reaching a bit with the word Nezer, the village didn't exist until centuries after the OT was written or seeing another typology in Samson, Samuel or John the Baptist being Nazarites).
I know you are a believer but the story here and in Luke are each constructed from elements from the OT. The star is not a nefarious plot but a miraculous supernatural sign of the birth. The version Ignatius is familiar with especially makes clear that point.
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why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
Matt 2 makes it plain the star didn't first lead to a manger but to King Herod who wanted to kill Jesus.
I know the WT says that but read it yourself. It does not say that at all. It says the Magi logically went to Jerusalem (the Capitol of Judea) after seeing a star (common sign of birth of kings) rise in the east and ask around:
“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
The star does not move from the east to lead them to Herod, rather Herod hears about these Magi asking around and then secretly has them summoned to him.
7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”
The star they had seen when in the east then, to their joy, reappears and helps them locate Jesus.
The twisted version of the WT is a deliberate misrepresentation of the story to demonize the familiar Xmas scene.
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39
why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
Boogerman, I think your conclusion could be embraced by a Christian but your argument leaves, me like jnine said, what??? I think decapitating your neighbor while motivated as a religious terrorist is still a crime. What's not a crime is taking a special day to be kind and charitable.