Vidqun, would you recommend a similar approach to the Koran or the Vedas? How about the Urantia book?Dianetics?
. As a scientist, .....
No doubt you have training as a scientist, but you are definitely not acting as a scientist in this discussion.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun..The account according to Eusebius, a solid and reliable Church historian
I'll remind you it was Eusebius who argued that John the Presbyter was likely the author of the Apocalypse
You suggest I dismiss Polycarp as ahistorical, not at all. His legend grew however to include many rather ridiculous tales of miracles and embellishments. You mention his martyrdom. Do you believe the story as found in the Martyrdom of Polycarp? (An anonymous document written sometime in the 2nd to 4th century)
Do you feel a voice from heaven told him to be "a man" and that the towering fire refused to kill him but only made him glow and smell like frankincense? Do you believe that when a soldier walked up to him and pierced his side, a dove ascended from him and such volumes of blood poured out that it extinguished the fire?
Do we not have to acknowledge legend making?
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Vid obsession
by punkofnice ini'm interested in your thoughts.. the media tells us a lot of agenda driven propaganda.
you're hard pressed to spot truth these days.. however, i'm told that the rona is now just a rotten flu and not the plague we were originally terrified in to believing.
last time i heard it was down in the hit parade to 16th nasty health thing.. all the people and family i know that have had the rona, have been complaining it's a very crappy flu.
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peacefulpete
So much disinformation is STILL being circulated. The Sars-cov-2 virus was a new virus that humans had not been exposed to. It was highly contagious and dangerous. The Sars-cov (1) virus of 2002 killed approximately 9% of those infected. The Sar-Cov-2 had a rate of serious illness about 10 times that of the unrelated flu virus. Mortality rates early on were between .5% and 1.5% mortality before we developed a more effective therapy for recovery. The unpredictable way people responded to exposure contributed to its spread and the dismissive reactions of some. While the medical profession scrambled to find therapies and equipment to deal with it, the best course was to limit the transmission rate and slow the curve to enable the worlds hospitals to keep up.
The vaccines were successful at reducing the viral load, and thereby lowering the risk of serious illness and transmission.
As all viruses (given the chance) do, it evolved into dozens of variants in the bodies of the infected. The variants that were more contagious spread faster and became dominant. Fortunately, and not inevitably, as the virus became more contagious it also became less dangerous to otherwise healthy people. The virus in some form is now endemic and will be with us for a long time. It's still advised we continue to wear a mask in indoor public settings for those who are not willing or able to get the vaccines and those who, like me, have cancer or other health issues that would be a complication to recovering from even the new variants.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
I've pointed out that there was no witness only tradition asserted by those with motive.
I've also just noticed Papias (there in the quote by Eusebius) a contemporary of Polycarp claimed to have learned from those "who followed" the Apostles. That is also suggestive that the Polycarp legend is unlikely.
But moving on,... by your logic ought not the earliest interpretations of the apocalypse be the most persuasive?
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Peacefulpete, Polycarp knew John personally. This he shared with Irenaeus. Why would they lie?
Really? Polycarp never once says so in any of his writings, nor for that matter did he ever mention or quote from Revelation, a bit awkward if he was a student of the author. What's more, Irenaeus actually claimed only to have seen Polycarp as a young child. He never said he was told by Polycarp that he spoke with the apostle John. He only repeats that legend as circulating in Asia.
Polycarp would himself only been a tot when the Apostle John was a very old man (in exile on top of it according to tradition). What we have is legend building likely motivated by the claims of succession to church leadership.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun, Since Justin never explained why he concluded the author was the same John as described as an apostle from the Gospel story it's hard to evaluate his judgement. How did he deal with the theological and linguistic differences clearly seen by others? However, if we are to conclude Justin's opinion on the matter is conclusive then ought we not regard his interpretation of the apocalypse as likewise authoritative? I doubt you do as his differs from yours most fundamentally
As to Irenaeus, he was said by Eusebius to have said that there was a "John also, the Lord's disciple, when beholding the sacerdotal and glorious advent of His kingdom, says in the Apocalypse:.". Although commonly this is assumed to be referring to the Apostle called John in the gospel, that is hardly certain. In the very context of the above quote, Irenaeus quoted repeatedly from the "gospel" attributed to the apostle John only to subsequently a few lines later introduce the "apocalypse" as a work by "John the Lords disciple". I find that a bit suggestive he understood the John who wrote the revelation as distinct from the gospel writer. He may also have simply used the term "disciple" as Eusebius (quoting Papias) otherwhere does in his Church History III:
4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders — what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice.
5. It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.
6. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.
7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.
Note John the Presbyter (Elder) as distinct from John the Apostle is included among the "disciples of the Lord" and called the author of the revelation.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Vidqun, From Wiki:
The author of the Book of Revelation identifies himself only as "John".[7] Traditionally, this was often believed to be the same person as John the Apostle (John, son of Zebedee), one of the apostles of Jesus, to whom the Gospel of John was also attributed.[7] The early-2nd-century writer, Justin Martyr, was the first to equate the author of Revelation with John the Evangelist.[8]
Other early Christian writers, such as Dionysius of Alexandria and Eusebius of Caesarea, noting the differences in language and theological outlook between this work and the Gospel,[9] discounted this possibility, and argued for the exclusion of the Book of Revelation from the canon as a result.[10] The early Christian writer Papias appeared in his writings to distinguish between John the Evangelist and John the Elder,[11] and many biblical scholars now contend that the latter was the author of Revelation.[12][13][14]
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Who was John of Patmos?
I also do not doubt the "authenticity". It is, at least in some form, an ancient example of Jewish apocalyptic literature not a modern counterfeit.
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WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast
by raymond frantz in.
https://youtu.be/wg9-pvxsoqm.
this is my take on may 2022 watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of daniel 7. what do you think?.
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peacefulpete
Study of an ancient text involves the most basic questions, who wrote it, why and when. What were the circumstances what influenced the author's style. Comparative literature studies often illuminate cryptic or esoteric language.
Begin with who wrote it and immediately you will find surprises. Soon after it was written it was attributed to different authors and denied to have been written by the anonymous author of the gospel John. Then pursue the when and whys. Only then are you making any legitimate effort to interpret it.
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Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW
by doasthouwilt ini’d like to marry my best friend of 30+ years, turned ‘secret’ girlfriend of 1 ½ years who is a jehovah’s witness, born into it, baptized and an active ‘pioneer’.
our marriage would happen prior to letting any of her jw friends and cohorts know that we are together.
once married she may simply come forward and ‘admit’ or we may wait until it’s found out – one way or the other, the reason for this marriage is not customary – i am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point, there can be no notion from society elders about her ending the relationship.
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peacefulpete
If she has had feelings for you for years and has not after all this time ended one or the other relationship, nothing is likely to change. She will be tormented and divided, and you will never have her full love.
As brutal as it sounds, make her choose. Sorry mate but it may go either way, but then you will have clarity. If she chooses you she will need help unpacking the years of control and guilt.