WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

raymond frantz

This is my take on May 2022 Watchtower on the seven headed beast and its connection to the 4 beasts of Daniel 7

What do you think?

truth_b_known

I watched the whole video. It is well done and well thought out. I always try to listen with an open mind with the goal of learning something new.

First, I agree that the Watchtower has a long history of getting it wrong when it comes to the topic of the beasts of Revelation. The goal posts are always moving with the Watchtower. I think that most will agree with that.

Where my research has me differing has to deal with the Apostle John himself. It is my belief that John, like Paul, was a zealot. Both John and Paul firmly believed that the end would come in their lifetime. That means the events of Revelation would have been fulfilled in the first or early second century.

Thank you for sharing.

raymond frantz

Truth_b_known , thank you

Jeffro

Sigh. 🤦‍♂️

Revelation borrows imagery from Daniel, but the purposes are quite different.

Daniel describes various empires from Babylon down until Antiochus IV Epiphanes of the Seleucid dynasty.

Revelation on the other hand refers to the Roman Empire ('Babylon the Great' is Rome, which was a city that had a kingdom over the empire's various client kingdoms). The various 'beasts' in Revelation depict successive Roman emperors during the first and early second centuries, along with their impact on Christians. This was supposed to lead into a hypothetical future 'end time' typical of the genre.

Relevance to anything happening now remains exactly zero.

Vanderhoven7

Relevance to anything happening now remains exactly zero.

Yes exactly that!

Vidqun

I really don't understand your "historical view." Rev. 4:1 is a good example. The following article makes sense to me:

Most commentaries do not tackle the theological or prophetic question, but assume a historical interpretation. Theologically, this is based on the view that biblical prophecies always have concrete, contemporary significance; indeed, R. Schütz takes the view that prophecy in Revelation is written at the time when the author thinks the great turning point must come. Historically such an interpretation is based on the suggestion that apocalyptic literature is always written with contemporary reference at times when some turning point was expected in view of the urgency of the need.

NT prophecy has permanent significance because no one knows the hour and the mystery of iniquity is already at work, as expressed in Revelation by the fact that Babylon sits on the beast, i.e., has a lasting connection with it which is not dependent on the manifestation of the beast. The historical argument for the contemporary interpretation of Revelation, and especially of the beasts, namely, that apocalyptic literature demands such an interpretation, rests on the petitio principii that Revelation is to be interpreted in terms of this literature. It is well known to what difficulties application of this interpretation leads.

Similarly, the view of Schütz (464) that the images of Revelation could be known to the author only, from apocalyptic literature is another petitio principii. Every page of Revelation shows how immersed its speech and imagery are in the OT. Every page shows also how free the author is from the letter of the OT and from any attested apocalyptic tradition. This is why the question of the theological and prophetic significance of the images must be raised.

See G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, G. Friedrich (Eds.). (1964–). Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 3, pp. 135, 136, footnote 11). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

raymond frantz

Vidgun, I agree with the OT imagery, many times in order to understand Revelation you need to look more closely to OT imagery or OT accounts ,but I think the connection between the beast of Revelation 13:1-5 with Daniel 7 is obvious since the Revelation beast I'd made up from the animal parts of the beasts of Daniel 7

Revelation 13:2

"Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard(=3rd beast)) but its feet were like those of a bear,(=2nd beast) and its mouth was like a lion’s(=1st beast) mouth."

I don't think that's a coincidence

Jeffro

Vidqun:

I really don't understand your "historical view."

It is obviously more exciting to pretend Revelation has some special meaning for now and into the future, but it is not remotely ‘hard to understand’ that it actually referred to events around the time of writing along with a hypothetical end time expected to follow shortly after.

NT prophecy has permanent significance because no one knows the hour

Or in other words, vague ‘prophecies’ can be reused as needed when earlier interpretations fail.

Every page shows also how free the author is from the letter of the OT and from any attested apocalyptic tradition. This is why the question of the theological and prophetic significance of the images must be raised.

This is a plain old false dichotomy. Essentially saying, ‘He’s not using the meanings from the OT so it must be prophetic instead.’ No.

Vidqun

Yes, you're right Raymond. To explain Revelation, Daniel's input would be needed. The book of Revelation is left unsealed, but Daniel's book is sealed until the time of the end (Dan. 12:4, 9; Rev. 22:10).

I agree the beasts share similar animal characteristics. But your first combination beast of Rev. 13 only reigned 42 months (Rev. 13:5). That means it would be assimilated by the image, becoming a beast in its own right, i.e., the scarlet-colored wild beast of Rev. 17. The same goes for the ten kings (earthly totality = all the kings on earth) and Daniel's beasts (remnants of those would be Iraq, Iran, Greece and Italy). These would become part of the scarlet-colored wild beast. Why? Because at Armageddon only two beasts would remain for Jesus to deal with, Beast from the earth (False prophet) and the scarlet-colored wild beast (Beast from the abyss). See Rev. 19:20; 20:10.

Nebuchadnezzar's dream image, and the different layers of metal, compares well with Dan 7. To force Russia into the mix would upset the chronological order. By the way, quite a few evangelical Christians are also doing the same. I prefer using Dan. 11:40 to explain the war in Ukraine. It's part of the pushing between the two kings, which is similar to the Society's viewpoint. The final clay and iron of the feet, which do not mix, also correspond to Daniel 11:40 and the competition between the King of the North and South.

Jeffro, here's something for you to think about. Would you say it is all due to coincidence?

The Biblical importance of a future “tribulation” or “time of distress” should not be underestimated. A multitude of passages, peppered all over Scripture, directly or indirectly refer to the “great tribulation” and connected events (cf. Is. 2:10, 19, 21; 13:10, 11; Amos 8:9, 11, 12; Hag. 2:6; Hebr. 12:26-29). In addition, nearly two thirds of the book of Joel describes tribulation parallels (Joel, chapter 1 & 2). Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises information about the “great tribulation” (Matt. 24:15-28). Nearly a third of the book of Revelation (chapters 6-9, 11, 15, 16) deals exclusively with tribulation related developments. And as will be seen, prophetic chronology of both Daniel and Revelation points to important facets of the tribulation period (Dan. 8:11-14, 25; 12:1, 7, 11, 12; Rev. 11:2, 3).

Jeffro

Vidqun:

Would you say it is all due to coincidence?

Why on earth would I call it ‘coincidence’? Later writers had access to earlier works, and the apocalyptic genre typically shares common themes, of which ‘tribulation’ is the most basic. (Asserting ‘coincidence’ as the only alternative to ‘prophecy’ is also another false dichotomy.)

Approximately 13% of Jesus’ Olivet discourse comprises information about the “great tribulation”

The ‘great tribulation’ in the NT is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE. Jesus’ ‘return’ was explicitly expected both after the ‘tribulation’ and within a generation of his death. Earlier OT ‘tribulations’, such as Antiochus’ desecration of the temple and ban of Jewish religion in 168 BCE alluded to in Daniel, do not refer to the same event.

WT May 2022: The Seven Headed Beast

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