Posts by peacefulpete

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Vienna, It's a proposal that has some explanatory power. As he says unfortunately we have no ancient Hebrew versions with which to compare. Ultimately it doesn't matter as much as it seems. Once a variant text existed, readers understood the text differently. IOW, however the OG variant came to be (closer to original, scribal error, or theological alteration) subsequent readers would have seen the text differently...

You may have noticed this comment in the article:

We know that the language of Rev 1:13-14, where the exaltedJesus is called “son of man” but is depicted in terms that correspond tothe Ancient of Days of Dan 7:9 (“white hair”), was shaped by Dan 7:13OG, while other allusions to Daniel 7 – most notably in the Gospels – presuppose the clear distinction between the two characters found inthe Aramaic text and Theodotion.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

(3) The 'One Like a Son of Man' According to the Old Greek of Daniel 7,13-14 | Benjamin Reynolds - Academia.edu

(3) The Son of Man and the Ancient of Days Observations on the Early Christian Reception of Daniel 7 | Bogdan G Bucur - Academia.edu

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

It is noted that the identification of the SofM as 'holy ones of Israel' is the result of the seeming substitution of the 'holy ones' with the SofM in the angelic interpretation offered in verse 27:

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

This reads rather awkward and has long been suggested to be the result of some type of gloss. Has the SofM been effectively erased from this passage to support the reading that the SofM is to be identified with the SofM?

To repeat, many have noted that only the Son of man is referred to in the vision section while only the 'holy ones' are said to receive the power in the interpretation in the MT and Theodotian forms. This is what leads many to conclude that the author intended to strictly identify the SofM as holy ones of Israel collectively. This however is not the case in the OG. In OG the holy ones are referred to in vs 8 of the vision. They are on the scene when the SofM appears. This makes the identification of SofM with holy ones improbable. This does suggest someone has removed the vs.8 reference to the holy ones in the Aramaic vorlage behind the MT and Theodotian to provide for the interpretation of the SofM as Israel and not that the SofM is the leader of the holy ones of Israel and as such all the nations. Perhaps as a result of changing Messianic views then current.

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

There are a number of suggestions explaining this difference. One is the reading is the result of an effort to remove the concept of the Two Powers in Heaven that was seen as a threat by some. IOW instead of two powers, now there is only one. A second proposal suggests the opposite, that the MT (Masoretic) reading had been altered.

Johan Lust proposed the thesis that the current MT is, in fact, an “early Targum” of the original Hebrew text of Daniel, and that the OG translates, accurately, that original Hebrew text, now lost, in which the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man were, indeed, “one and the same symbol.”
In this case, the distinction between the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man would have been
introduced by the current MT – the Aramaic that supplanted the original Hebrew – in order to give voice to the apocalyptic-messianist agenda of that “early Targum.”

56

Old Greek Daniel's Son of Man

by peacefulpete in

again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site.

the basic question i want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in daniel 7. as we all know christians understood the figure to be the messiah (christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of israel as jews typically read it?

or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?.

peacefulpete

Again this is large topic, some of which has been discussed elsewhere on this site. The basic question I want to discuss is the identification of the 'someone like a son of man" in Daniel 7. As we all know Christians understood the figure to be the Messiah (Christ), so the question posed is did the author intend it to be a singular personage or a collective symbol of the holy of Israel as Jews typically read it? Or how about the unexpected idea that the "someone like a son of man" was the very same character as the "ancient of days" in another role?

The catalyst for this discussion is the alternate reading of Dan 7:13 found in the OG (Old Greek) LXX Papyrus 967. (andCodex Chisianus MS 88) Quoting an article by Bogdan G. Bucur: (3) The Son of Man and the Ancient of Days Observations on the Early Christian Reception of Daniel 7 | Bogdan G Bucur - Academia.edu

There is a notable dierence between two extant Greek versions of Dan7:13. While Theodotion, faithful to the Aramaic text, speaks of “one likea son of man” being presented to the Ancient of Days (ὡς υἱὸς ἀνθρώπουἐρχόμενος ἦν καὶ ἕως τοῦ παλαιοῦ τῶν ἡμερῶν ἔφθασεν), the so-calledOld Greek (hereafter OG) depicts “one like a son of man” traveling, ingodlike fashion, “upon” the clouds of heaven (Ps 103/104:1; Isa 19:1),and approaching “like the Ancient of Days” (ὡς υἱὸς ἀνθρώπου ἤρχετοκαὶ ὡς παλαιὸς ἡμερῶν παρῆν).

6

Prisoners of the Mind

by iloowy.goowy in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadlccbe_js.

have you ever seen a full-grown elephant weighing thousands of pounds chained to a small stake in the ground when you visited a circus?

did it ever enter your mind and make you wonder how such a small stake in the ground could hold such a huge animal from straying outside the boundaries of the length of its chain and stake?

peacefulpete

An excellent book about the human cost and power of high control groups, I'd also recommend Hostage to Heaven.

Hostage to Heaven: Barbara Underwood, Betty Underwood: 9780517538753: Amazon.com: Books

And for a broader look at the topic:

Losing Reality: On Cults, Cultism, and the Mindset of Political and Religious Zealotry: Lifton, Robert Jay: 9781620974995: Amazon.com: Books

4

The Firefly Minister

by iloowy.goowy in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcoikaci9i4.

from ron frye, 2014. when i was a child, my parents and i visited one of my mother's sisters and her family in bloomington, indiana.

one warm evening l remember experiencing the joy of seeing hundreds and hundreds of tiny luminous insects punctuating the night sky.

peacefulpete

I used to live by the backwaters of a large lake system, at least 100 acres of marsh. The fireflies on a couple nights a year were spectacular. I still hope to time it right when I return on occasion, but rarely do I get treated to the light shows of my youth.

BTW, I know the lights were not for me, it's a giant orgy, the bugs locate each other in the dark. Before that they were predatory larvae that inject venom to paralyze small aquatic animals. Also, a bit jolting is that some species of fireflies as adults are also predatory and almost exclusively eat other fireflies that are attracted to their light hoping for some sexytime.

I understand why the narrator of that video didn't want to hear the scientific explanation for the lights he enjoyed watching, the truth is something can be both beautiful from one perspective and quite horrific from another.

7

trimethylmaneria (TMAU) fecal body odor

by Nicol in

anyone know a witness with trimethylmaneria (tmau) or fecal body odor?

.

peacefulpete

I know you are but what am I?

3

Using Corporations to do God's Work

by Eliyahu in

what is a corporation?.

"a corporation is a legal entity that is separate and distinct from its owners.

under the law, corporations possess many of the same rights and responsibilities as individuals.

peacefulpete

I see the harm of equating fictitious 'persons' with real citizens well illustrated with the Citizens United ruling. Effectively the voice of the individual citizen is drowned out by the voice of corporate interest. In a similar way the accountability of individuals is lost under a corporate faux personhood.

It's not hard to see how either scenario could lead to injustice.

I don't see any equation to Baal worship, however. I see that as more of a brand trademark issue.

11

The Akedah

by peacefulpete in

the genesis 22 episode, often referred to as the akedah (aqueda) ie "the binding" is a topic worthy a masterclass in textual and theological development.

a comprehensive discussion regarding this development would involve volumes and still leave much to be uncertain.

in short, the internal contradictions the narrative offers as it appears in genesis have inspired millennia of interpretive expansions and elaborations.

peacefulpete

Or maybe we (US) are just slow. lol.

BTW just a reminder that I'm thumbs-uping a lot of comments but still am restricted from doing so for reasons unknown.