The people of ancient Palestine were unfortunate to have lived at the nexus of 3 continents, a valuable piece of real estate for any ambitious empire. As a result, they were forcibly exposed to a parade of foreign cultures. In some ways it forged a resilient people, an adaptable people. Ultimately, the loss of so much, spawned a religion obsessed with their sacred stories and racial separateness. In the absence of political independence and temple the Torah became everything. This, more than anything else, is why these stories perpetuated. When the indigenous mythologies of the Hittites, Sumerians and Babylonians were lost, needing to be rediscovered by archaeologists, the Jews kept them alive as the foci of their identity. Ironically, had they existed in a more remote quarter of the planet and left to a more typical development, we would likely have never heard of a Noah.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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47
The First Holocaust
by nicolaou inplease, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.
the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.
as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.
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47
The First Holocaust
by nicolaou inplease, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.
the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.
as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.
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peacefulpete
But what else should I conclude, that I a puny human have worked out the ethics of life and death and can teach the creator my conclusions?
Or maybe you can write your story about a deity that no one needs make excuses for. Maybe someday your story will inspire people to act in ways to be proud of.
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47
The First Holocaust
by nicolaou inplease, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.
the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.
as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.
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peacefulpete
Plus what about the killing that is going on right now and that us humans could stop if we wanted to. That’s not God’s fault, that’s our fault. Is it easier to speculate on what might have happened thousands of years ago and plug it into a philosophical debate about God rather than face the real life situation that is going on right now and the culpability of humanity.
What kind of role model did the Jewish scribes offer? Would being more godlike result in more or less division and suffering?
I agree, of course we have a culpability, a moral obligation to try to improve the world. Looking to the OT for guidance is not the answer.
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47
The First Holocaust
by nicolaou inplease, please ignore all the scientific impossibilities here, that's not what this topic is about.. let's make the assumption as many christians do that the bible is historically accurate.
the noachian flood actually happened a little less than 4,500 years ago after which eight adults stepped off the ark to repopulate the planet.. that means that approximately 60 million lives had been snuffed out, a holocaust by anyone's estimation.
as if that isn't horrific enough just think about the babies, toddlers and young children god killed.. he drowned all of them, every single one.
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peacefulpete
The ethical ideals of many who wrote the Bible scream out as primitive and barbaric. For many of the scribes responsible for the works of the Pentateuch, life was as uncomplicated as giving God exactly what he wants or starve and die of disease. Even promising that God would send wild animals to kill your children.
14If, however, you fail to obey Me and to carry out all these commandments, ...16then this is what I will do to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting disease, and fever that will destroy your sight and drain your life. You will sow your seed in vain,... I will proceed to punish you sevenfold for your sins. ... I will multiply your plagues seven times... 22I will send wild animals against you to rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and reduce your numbers, until your roads lie desolate.
For later Christians like Marcion of Sinope, this was just unconscionable. Their solution might seem radical today. They insisted the God of the OT was not the true God but a demiurge pretender who had misled the Jews. It was impossible to harmonize the ideals of the Jesus they thought they knew with the God of the OT.
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Another Tidbit regarding Acts 15
by peacefulpete inacts 15 has an interesting backstory (and textual history) that has been touched on elsewhere so here i will only say, the purpose of the section, and much of the book, is to re-envision the history of the early days of xtianity.
the deep schisms, (some might say even different origins) are made to appear superficial and inconsequential.
this theme contiues with the choice of two 'prophets' from jerusalem traveling back to antioch to share with paul and barny, named judas (yes another one) and silas.
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peacefulpete
I'm glad the Jesus you discern from these texts is one that promoted love. Literature at its best inspires our best from us. -
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An intro to my experience
by drippee ingood evening,.
i had an old account a few years back but since then have had a lot happen to me.
i grew up in the faith, pioneered, did everything i could to keep my parents and peers off of my back, but nothing seemed to be enough to satisfy them.
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peacefulpete
Everyone has moments of nostalgia. It's part of leaving childhood behind. I agree wholeheartedly that returning to pretend to be someone else is a very bad idea. People get messed up trying and in the end must conform or reopen wounds.
Take it from someone whose been around the block, people will come and go. Enjoy the company of people you like and who like you, knowing they may not forever be in your life. People change, people move.
I never knew a 22-year-old that didn't believe their life was missing something. You should feel that way, life is ahead of you. It's a mistake, with all your potential, to run backwards to something that didn't work the first time.
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Another Tidbit regarding Acts 15
by peacefulpete inacts 15 has an interesting backstory (and textual history) that has been touched on elsewhere so here i will only say, the purpose of the section, and much of the book, is to re-envision the history of the early days of xtianity.
the deep schisms, (some might say even different origins) are made to appear superficial and inconsequential.
this theme contiues with the choice of two 'prophets' from jerusalem traveling back to antioch to share with paul and barny, named judas (yes another one) and silas.
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peacefulpete
Very creative. However, the adversative particle δέ would seem to differentiate Paul and Barney's actions from that of Judas and Silas.
I have to accept that those whose first language was Greek would have understood the matter better than me using lexicons. They saw a problem. However, if you are correct, then we have a text written poorly and confusingly, not sure how that is a superior outcome to accepting a scribal glitch.
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If an apocalyptic movement goes through disappointment the rules relax for the 2nd and third generation eg JWs
by usualusername1 inyoutube play from 15:55. clip only lasts a few minutes but excellent reasoning.. https://youtu.be/fk9a8tpfydq?si=i5fvlpt94917mavy.
p.
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peacefulpete
Tabor has a nice easy going nature that is enjoyable to listen to. He's written on subjects many leaving the WT might find interesting.
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Another Tidbit regarding Acts 15
by peacefulpete inacts 15 has an interesting backstory (and textual history) that has been touched on elsewhere so here i will only say, the purpose of the section, and much of the book, is to re-envision the history of the early days of xtianity.
the deep schisms, (some might say even different origins) are made to appear superficial and inconsequential.
this theme contiues with the choice of two 'prophets' from jerusalem traveling back to antioch to share with paul and barny, named judas (yes another one) and silas.
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peacefulpete
In the same vein as the OP, we see two stories of Christians who had not heard of Christian baptism. Ponder that. These converts to Christianity knew ONLY the OT and yet became Christians in some sense. They never read Paul's works nor the Gospels and they practiced an Essenic Jewish baptism as John had. The writer of Acts includes these early 'Christians' as immediately adopting the "more correct" Proto-Orthodox version of Christianity.
24 Now a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by race, [a]an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the scriptures. 25 This man had been [b]instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spake and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, knowing only the baptism of John: 26 and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him: and when he was come, he [c]helped them much that had believed through grace; 28 for he powerfully confuted the Jews, [d]and that publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts has name dropped a number of famous/infamous persons as part of this program of revisionism and does so here again. Apollos, someone otherwise known only from 1 Corinthians as a kind of rival to Paul is effectively rehabilitated into the proto-Orthodoxy.
In the next chapter again in Ephesus we get another story of Christians who had been baptized as Essenes and had seemingly implausibly never heard of the 'holy spirit'.
19 And it happened that while tApollos was at Corinth, Paul passed uthrough the inland1 country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, v“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, wwe have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, x“Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into yJohn’s baptism.” 4 And Paul said, y“John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people zto believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, athey were baptized in2 the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And bwhen Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and cthey began speaking in tongues and dprophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
It's easy to conclude that Christian roots lay in Hellenized Jewish circles who had extrapolated the Christ story from OT and related texts. IMO these passages seem to preserve an early tradition consistent with this model of Christian origins while at the same time subsuming this form of Christianity into the fold of orthodoxy 80-100 years later.
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Lost Gospel Series
by peacefulpete ini thought it would be fun to take a brief look at various gospels in use by christians of the first few centuries ce.
one each week.
a few weeks back i posted regarding the egerton gospel which i cleverly misspelled edgerton gospel.. for now consider the oxyrhynchus gospel 840:.
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peacefulpete
As Phizzy mentioned the Oxyrhychus hoard has a number of relevant texts. Here is the Oxy 1224:
Fragment 1: recto
139
01 [ . . . ] in everything
02 [ . . . ]. Truly,
03 [I say to you . . . ]Fragment 2: recto, col. ii
1[73]
01 It weighed me down. And [approach-]
02 ing [i]n a vis[ion], Jesus [said,]
03 "Why are you dis[cour]aged? For not [ . . . ]
04 [y]ou, but the [ . . . ]
05 [ . . . ]Fragment 2: verso, col. i
174
01 [ . . . ] "you [sai]d, although you are not answer-
02 [ing. What then did] you [re]nounce? W[h]at
03 [is] the ne[w] doct[rine] [that they say]
04 [you] te[ach, or what is the] new [b]a[ptism]
05 [that you proclaim? Ans]wer and . . .Fragment 2: verso, col. ii
[175]
01 When the scribes an[d Pharisees]
02 and priests sa[w hi]m,
03 they were angry [that with sin]ners
04 (right in the middle of them) [he was reclining.]
05 But when Jesus heard, he said,
06 "Those who are [healthy ha]ve [no need]
07 [of a physician . . . ]Fragment 2: recto, col. ii
[1]76
01 [ . . . a]nd p[r]ay for
02 your [ene]mies. For the one who is not
03 [against yo]u is for you.
04 [The one who i]s far away [today], tomorrow
05 will be [near you] and in
06 [ . . . ] the advers[ary]
07 [ . . . ]As would be expected the text is fragmentary. It was part of a book form papyrus collection with page numbers. Again it is impossible to be dogmatic but ranges of date of composition are 50-150CE,similar to the canonical gospel forms. There are some obvious similarity of thought, yet with significant divergent material, suggesting another independent stream of tradition.