P.S. have you formulated an opinion regarding source critical analyses that see the work as a compilation of Jewish and Christian elements?
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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78
How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?
by BoogerMan in(revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!
) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.
btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".
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78
How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?
by BoogerMan in(revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!
) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.
btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".
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peacefulpete
It probably got lost in the lengthy post, but, if the process of adoption and adaptation, suggested by a number of scholars over the years, is correct, "Babylon" meant Jerusalem for the Jewish writer but then a later Christian expanded upon this, first allowing the identification stand then pointedly reapplying it to Rome.
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78
How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?
by BoogerMan in(revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!
) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.
btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".
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peacefulpete
A person can, and many have, spend a career trying to decode the work as it is today. In my view that is in a large way because the work is a composition of multiple authors. The final redactor no doubt had contemporary Roman events in mind, but the underlying texts were thoroughly Jewish and likely predate 70CE. I don't just mean the near universal intertextuality of the symbols and idioms, (Ezekiel, Daniel, Exodus etc) but that large sections were complete original works by a Jewish scribe who, like many of his day, saw the Temple and its priests as corrupt. This work/s was adapted by a Christian (likely in Rome), with similar apocalyptic expectations, living a few decades later.
Oddly, Jesus is easily removed from nearly the entire work without altering the flow or straining the meaning beyond what was current in the pre-Christian era. Some time ago we discussed this, and someone asked if we could recover the Jewish Vorlage within the composition. I personally think the task is impossible given the overlap in terminology, but a sample example might demonstrate how the obvious Christian elements often appear redactional and secondary. This is true of even sections that are generally regarded as original to the Christian author. The additional redactional quality of it jumps out. :
Rev 1:1 The revelation [of Jesus Christ,] which God gave [him] to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testified to the word of God [and to the testimony of Jesus Christ,] even to all that he saw.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
[5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and made us to be a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]
Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother who share with you [in Jesus] the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God [and the testimony of Jesus.]
NRS Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, [where also their Lord was crucified.]
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God [and hold the testimony of Jesus.]
Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God [and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.]
Rev 17:6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints [and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus.] When I saw her, I was greatly amazed.
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your comrades [who hold the testimony of Jesus.]Worship God! [For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.“]
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded [for their testimony to Jesus and] for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned [with Christ] a thousand years.
Rev 22:16 [“It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”]
Rev 22:20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. [Come, Lord Jesus]
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The Reasoning Book
by Magnum inthe book reasoning from the scriptures was released in the 1980's, and it was used at virtually every meeting for service, every service meeting, and every theocratic ministry school meeting thereafter.
many jws had copies bound together with their bibles.
it was huge in jw land back then.. at that time, with the reasoning book, jws were trained to keep conversations going in spite of objections, to almost stick their feet in people's doors to keep conversations going, to defend "the truth," to argue doctrine, etc.. compare the situation today with that of the 80's.
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peacefulpete
We thought we knew the Bible. We had a dozen rehearsed passages filed away. If anyone had asked me when Isaiah lived or Michah or Habakuk or Ahab lived I would have needed to look it up and then forgot it just as fast. I had been exposed to these things (at least a WT take on it) but they weren't necessary to remember. I didn't need to see how the pieces fit together, I had been told what to believe and what to conclude. The WT system provided an appearance of Bible study that satisfied the mind sufficiently to not question the WT scholars who printed the material.
I was actually asked by a householder if I had read the Gnostic Gospels once, when I was about 20. I said NO!, still pretending to know what they were, and said they were demon inspired. (default response). I didn't have a clue that for many Christians these writings were their "Bible." My response of course ended the conversation, which is ultimately what I wanted so as to not sound stupid anymore. I did however go to the library secretly and look up the subject and what I read left an impression that resurfaced years later.
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Patterson New Visitor Centre & Museum Announced
by raymond frantz inhttps://www.jwupdates.com/post/new-patterson-visitor-center-and-first-century-museum.
january 1, 2024, marked the official opening of the patterson visitor center, located at the watchtower educational center in patterson, new york, u.s.a. the feature museum of the visitors’ center is entitled “first-century bible village.” brother isaiah miller, who works in the museum department at bethel, said: “the bible village was designed to provide everyone with a realistic and educational experience.
studies show that interactive learning has a powerful effect on people of all ages.” after her tour, one visitor exclaimed: “this museum made me feel like i had been transported back to the land of ancient israel.
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peacefulpete
It's got to be someone's pet project. The sectarian bubble requires substitutions for the world outside. Replacement friends and family, replacement music, replacement TV/movies, replacement history museums. Increasingly common is replacement schooling. (home school aka, no schooling) Years ago, we locally had replacement dances and picnics, game nights. They were the best memories I have of the church. I heard they kiboshed these types of gatherings some years ago. I wonder if they might rethink that.
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The Reasoning Book
by Magnum inthe book reasoning from the scriptures was released in the 1980's, and it was used at virtually every meeting for service, every service meeting, and every theocratic ministry school meeting thereafter.
many jws had copies bound together with their bibles.
it was huge in jw land back then.. at that time, with the reasoning book, jws were trained to keep conversations going in spite of objections, to almost stick their feet in people's doors to keep conversations going, to defend "the truth," to argue doctrine, etc.. compare the situation today with that of the 80's.
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peacefulpete
It was a master class in pretending to be a Bible expert. Rehearsing well worded responses to improve sales.
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Christians Encouraged to Read 'Pagan' Works
by peacefulpete inclement of alexandria.
the stromata, or miscellanies.
book vi.
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peacefulpete
P.S. I was returning my comments to the topic. Your comments have been wonderful and insightful. Regarding the conventions of using "Mark, Luke, Matt" etc when talking about the authors, I do as well. My point wasn't a critique. Simply adding it to the discussion assuming someone else might be reading.
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Have I Drifted Too Far?
by sinboi ini was shocked, really shocked.
what i am doing now is so acceptable to the friends around me.. my friends are all doing it.
it is so normal in the society,.
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peacefulpete
Simon please consider removing this from this forum.
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Rainbow Spirit Christ
by peacefulpete injust found an interesting article describing and defending the recent syncretic conceptualization of christianity in aboriginal australia called rainbow spirit theology.
(5) rainbow spirit and the cosmic christ | philip cox - academia.edu.
to sum up the essay, the aboriginal conception of deity, as pervasive in the land and cosmic in scope, was lost through the narrow confines of christianity bound by limited storyline and text.
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peacefulpete
Just found an interesting article describing and defending the recent syncretic conceptualization of Christianity in Aboriginal Australia called Rainbow Spirit Theology.
(5) Rainbow Spirit and The Cosmic Christ | Philip Cox - Academia.edu
To sum up the essay, the aboriginal conception of deity, as pervasive in the land and cosmic in scope, was lost through the narrow confines of Christianity bound by limited storyline and text. i.e. the type of Christianity brought by missionaries of the last 200 years. IMO, what is being endorsed is, a unique twist but, essentially a rediscovery of ancient forms of Christianity. While Eastern Churches and Catholic sects like the Franciscans retain some of this, the Catholic and European Protestant in general have distilled the spiritual into a catechism of dogma.
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Christians Encouraged to Read 'Pagan' Works
by peacefulpete inclement of alexandria.
the stromata, or miscellanies.
book vi.
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peacefulpete
Back on topic, Augustine and Emperor Constantine himself declared that Virgil was practically a Christian prophet. Virgil's works included the promise that a virgin would birth a son from heaven to rule the world in a golden age. Now much has been said on this topic that might be called, overzealous, however, not appreciating the cultural giants of the day and their role in Christian formulation is a mistake.