peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  9

  What If?

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  recent news about beards is getting lots of attention.

  it made me wonder if any guys will return to the church under the impression that 'so much has changed'.

  back when, i knew a couple guys who were outspoken about beards, seeing it as an issue, and was never terribly moved by their viewpoint.

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  peacefulpete

  What have you learned through your experience outside the JWs that would inform your choice to return or not?
  
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  16

  Help urgently needed.

  by MissDaSilva in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a sister has snitched on me.

  got a message from my group overseer requesting a little chat to see if i’m okay.

  urgent suggestions needed please.

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  peacefulpete

  Thank them for their concern and assure them if you want to talk, you will approach them. "Please respect my wish to sort this out myself." Close the door.
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  9

  What If?

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  recent news about beards is getting lots of attention.

  it made me wonder if any guys will return to the church under the impression that 'so much has changed'.

  back when, i knew a couple guys who were outspoken about beards, seeing it as an issue, and was never terribly moved by their viewpoint.

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  peacefulpete

  Recent news about beards is getting lots of attention. It made me wonder if any guys will return to the church under the impression that 'so much has changed'. Back when, I knew a couple guys who were outspoken about beards, seeing it as an issue, and was never terribly moved by their viewpoint. Now mind you I usually didn't shave whenever I had the chance, because it just felt natural and masculine, but it was never an issue "worth dying over" (being the believer I was). In reflection, I didn't understand the more fundamental reason it was an issue for the guys, then again, maybe they didn't know why it bothered them so much. Instinctive maybe.

  Since then, opinions about vaccines seems to be a favorite topic. On this forum there seems to be people who felt the emphasis on vaccines was proof the church was not what is claimed to be. (Please let's not discuss that again.)

  What if?

  If next year a new version of the JWs came about, one that didn't care about vaccines, beards, transfusions and pantsuits; one that let you talk to former members and go to college; one that let you decide about who you married and whether you want to vote. Would you return if doing so:

  ...meant that you would have to believe
  In things like Heaven and in Jesus and the Saints
  And all the Prophets

  To quote J Osborn.

  What have you learned through your experience outside the JWs that would inform your choice to return or not?
  
  
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  47

  What does God eat ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  beans ?

  ( human beans ).

  to those of you that believe in god: do you all believe the same thing ?.

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  peacefulpete

  Another interesting passage in the Elijah cycle (1 Kings 19) an angel provided Elijah a meal of a cake and water. He goes on in the wilderness for 40 days and nights sustained miraculously by it.

  Typologically Jeus is depicted as having the same experience. Mark briefly says:

  13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

  The Matthean redactor of this story adds a whole sequence of temptations to fill the 40 days. He ends with the angelic ministering. In effect he changed his source by placing the feeding of Jesus after the 40 days rather than before as was the original Elijah model. The Elijah version has the advantage of explain how a 40 day fast was possible.....He was fed manna cake from an angel!
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  47

  What does God eat ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  beans ?

  ( human beans ).

  to those of you that believe in god: do you all believe the same thing ?.

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  peacefulpete

  As a side note, the concern about "eating foods sacrificed to idols" was due to the idea of sharing a meal with the god/demon. This seems to be support for the idea that gods are vicariously eating/enjoying the sacrificed foods.

  Another thought. In Luke a story is added in which Jesus is depicted as eating with his disciples after his resurrection. A point made strenuously to prove the physical nature of Jesus. As one of the controversies dividing the early Christians this story doesn't seem to be motivated by a desire to show spirits can eat but rather the opposite. Rather strangely, the manuscripts are divided on the addition of the "honeycomb" as one of the foods Jesus ate. One has to wonder.........
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  47

  What does God eat ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  beans ?

  ( human beans ).

  to those of you that believe in god: do you all believe the same thing ?.

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  peacefulpete

  It is an interesting question. Naturally people imagined the gods as enjoying food like themselves, but also imagined they might have special god-food. The Greeks' stories often feature 'ambrosia' as a nectar/honey food/drink that sustains the gods and also imbues immortality on mortals if they eat, hence it is prohibited.

  Similarly, the Eden story suggests the prohibited tree/fruit makes the eater 'like one of us' according to the gods/spirits of the story. The choice to symbolize this forbidden food as a tree is certainly connected to the ubiquitous connection of life and fertility to trees and fruit and the goddess in her many forms. The Norse mythology depicts the gods as sustained by the apples of Idun a young woman, a myth with ancient connections.

  In the OT, God send 'manna' down from heaven. It tastes like "wafers made with honey". Psalm 78:25 says the manna was angel food.

  The honey/nectar/fruit associations are anciently assumed to be a favorite of the gods.

  However gods also have a taste for meats and grains. In a number of ancient myths the gods are seen as desiring to eat flesh and grains but seemingly unable as terms of their separation from mortal men. Humans wishing to appease the gods would send up meat smoke to please them. As a practical matter what was burned was often the inedible parts, the blood, bones, fat and innards.

  And apparently gods like wine. Judges 9 says

  ‘Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?’
  

  When making burnt offerings a gallon per lamb is the designated ratio in Lev 23. Again in this passage the food is enjoyed vicariously. The God can merely enjoy the smells.

  I contrast the stories in Gen 19 and 26 assumes Yahweh and other spirits can share a meal with people. These very anthropomorphic stories stand out in the OT and likely retain are some very ancient conceptions of Gods from the northern tradition.
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  47

  What does God eat ?

  by stan livedeath in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  beans ?

  ( human beans ).

  to those of you that believe in god: do you all believe the same thing ?.

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  peacefulpete

  Paul argued rather matter-of-factly that spirits have bodies, that is they are localized and contained in some sort of shell.
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  68

  Are Atheists Hypocritical in Celebrating Christmas?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  richard dawkins revealed that he celebrates christmas on radio four's today programme.. here is is quoted as saying: .

  'i am perfectly happy on christmas day to say merry christmas to everybody,' dawkins said.

  'i might sing christmas carols - once i was privileged to be invited to kings college, cambridge, for their christmas carols and loved it.

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  peacefulpete

  If a person honestly looks at the claims that Jesus made, there are only three conclusions that a person can logically come to. He was the world's greatest Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.

  Jesus never wrote a book. Jesus never made any claims about himself.
  
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  4

  Female Angels

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for some reason i never noticed this before: .

  5 then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, “look up and see what this is that is coming out.” 6 i said, “what is it?” he said, “this is a basket[b] coming out.” and he said, “this is their iniquity[c] in all the land.” 7 then a leaden cover was lifted, and there was a woman sitting in the basket!

  [d] 8 and he said, “this is wickedness.” so he thrust her back into the basket,[e] and pressed the leaden weight down on its mouth.

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  peacefulpete

  Broader acceptance of a goddess (female spirit) was retained as late as Ezekiel and Jeremiah, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. Perhaps it's surprising because it escaped the editing process of the sages of the 3rd-1rst c BCE.
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  4

  Female Angels

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for some reason i never noticed this before: .

  5 then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, “look up and see what this is that is coming out.” 6 i said, “what is it?” he said, “this is a basket[b] coming out.” and he said, “this is their iniquity[c] in all the land.” 7 then a leaden cover was lifted, and there was a woman sitting in the basket!

  [d] 8 and he said, “this is wickedness.” so he thrust her back into the basket,[e] and pressed the leaden weight down on its mouth.

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  peacefulpete

  For some reason I never noticed this before:

  5 Then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what this is that is coming out.” 6 I said, “What is it?” He said, “This is a basket[b] coming out.” And he said, “This is their iniquity[c] in all the land.” 7 Then a leaden cover was lifted, and there was a woman sitting in the basket![d] 8 And he said, “This is Wickedness.” So he thrust her back into the basket,[e] and pressed the leaden weight down on its mouth. 9 Then I looked up and saw two women coming forward. The wind was in their wings; they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket[f] between earth and sky. 10 Then I said to the angel who talked with me, “Where are they taking the basket?”[g] 11 He said to me, “To the land of Shinar, to build a house for it; and when this is prepared, they will set the basket[h] down there on its base.”

  It's hard not see that Zechariah imagined female spirits. To my knowledge he is the only one in the OT canon. Many commentators dismiss this description as 'symbolic'. Well of course the description is no more or less vivid than that of the description of spirit messengers as "man". So why female? Did someone pick up something interesting in Babylon?

  An interesting note in the Babylonian Talmud (Gittin 68a) mentions in passing that the words in Ecc 2:8 (3rd c BCE) the Quoheleth is said to have Male and Female (singers) yet the word is apparently a Babylonian loan word that means male and female demons.

  
  It is written: “I got myself sharim and sharot, and human pleasures, shidda and shiddot” (Ecclesiastes 2:8). The Gemara explains: “Sharim and sharot”: These are types of musical instruments. “And human pleasures”: These are pools and bathhouses. “Shidda and shiddot”:
  Here, in Babylonia, they interpreted these words in the following manner: Male demons [shidda] and female demons [shiddetin].
  
  The Gemara asks: Why was it necessary for Solomon, the author of Ecclesiastes, to have male demons and female demons? The Gemara answers: As it is written with regard to the building of the Temple: “For the house, when it was being built, was built of stone made ready at the quarry; and there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was being built” (I Kings 6:7). Solomon said to the sages: How shall I make it so that the stone will be precisely cut without using iron? They said to him: There is a creature called a shamir that can cut the stones, which Moses brought and used to cut the stones of the ephod.
  Solomon said to them: Where is it found? They said to him: Bring a male demon and a female demon and torment them together. It is possible that they know where, and due to the suffering they will reveal the place to you. Solomon brought a male demon and a female demon and tormented them together, and they said: We do not know where to find the shamir. Perhaps Ashmedai, king of the demons, knows.

  OK, a pretty fanciful tale but might it retain some angelology of the post-Babylonian period? Perhaps for a short while some Jews recognized male and female angels/demons. Certainly, as we enter the CE era we find both Jews and Christians adopting this concept in some quarters so it is probably not unrealistic to hypothesize that some held this view earlier.

  So in short, it appears possible that Zechariah included female spirits in his divine cosmology.