Posts by peacefulpete

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

When Christians began using a cross as an identifier is a separate issue in my mind. Though your suggestion that it was inherited as the Tav is interesting. I'm foremost interested in the formation of the doctrine of crucifixion. What were the influences and rational for the belief that the Christ was destined to be hung on a tree/xylon. Traditionally it's assumed a crucifixion occurred and that was later perceived to fulfill "prophecy". However, the opposite is more consistent with the process at work in the Gospels. That is, the story was written using elements drashed from the Tanakh. The tree/wood from Deut. and Genesis seems reasonably to be the inspiration for understanding the Christ/Son figure being killed on a tree, likely (and as proposed by Doherty Et Al.) this was in a lower level of heaven or briefly and imperceptively on earth.

I'm of course also admitting the influence from myths of other deities like Attis and Silenus who were hung on a tree contributed to this anticipation/revelation. Again, perhaps a short time later this was reinterpreted as a Roman execution by crucifixion on a cross per a number of NT writers. And, as you suggest perhaps the familiarity with the Tav symbolism made it all irresistible.

10

listening to misinformation

by enoughisenough in

jw.org has a what's new....it's about misinformation...how you need to be careful.

the person i have sent some things too ask if i had watched it...i said i would.

i probably am ticking this person off a bit.

peacefulpete

peacefulpete, I am inclined to look at various sides of an issue before I form conclusions. I wasn't always this way...but then the internet wasn't available. Do you consider the JWs a reputable source?

Like most corporations and religious organizations, they are deferring to the broad consensus of medical experts and researchers when they encouraged their people to be responsible members of society and get vaccinated if possible.

We all should feel free to get multiple perspectives. The problem is we need to be selective to avoid being pawns to clickbait and provocateurs of distrust. When websites specialize in nothing but conspiracy and scandal, they are not likely to be soberly looking for objective evidence but looking for ways to spin threads into a narrative to sell.

10

listening to misinformation

by enoughisenough in

jw.org has a what's new....it's about misinformation...how you need to be careful.

the person i have sent some things too ask if i had watched it...i said i would.

i probably am ticking this person off a bit.

peacefulpete

Ironic indeed is how those who denounce misinformation and profess to do fact checking are often those who are spreading misinformation and refuse to do 10 minutes of fact checking from reputable sources. There is a lesson here, but I fear you may not yet have learned it.

1

Thyme Tea - A Doctor's Remedy for Colds, Flu etc.

by BoogerMan in

if your nose is all blocked up, what have have you got to lose by trying this?

i'll give it a shot.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy1vu14uhma.

peacefulpete

We love tea in this house but have a sober view of the claims many tea makers make. Many of the plants used are in fact sources of potentially beneficial compounds if used properly and isolated from harmful compounds also found in these plants. What strikes me immediately as odd is he suggests making a solution of ground thyme and ginger (which do not dissolve) and drinking it rather than using a loose tea filter bag and drinking the "liquor". Has he ever made tea?

It's ironic that Thyme can cause asthma in some people and is best avoided if fighting certain cancers.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

Anony Mouse...Even if the Christ/son was a mythic/mystic figure we can discuss the elements of the story. Paul's Midrashic style use of Genesis and Deuteronomy may be the key to how he concluded the Christ was hung on a tree in a spirit level above the firmament. In Galatians 3 he combines elements drawn from Deuteronomy "cursed is everyone hanged upon a tree" and the Genesis story of Isaac bearing upon himself the wood to be used for his own death as a sacrifice. Both of these pericopes inspired Jewish commentary and were linked through the use of the word "wood/tree". Note this comment from Wilcox, Max. 1977. “‘Upon the Tree’: Deut 21:22-23 in the New Testament.” Journal of Biblical Literature 96 (1): 85–99. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3265329

In Genesis 22 it is found in the plural ξύλα . . . for the wood of the burnt-offering and, more specifically, in 22:6 Abraham is depicted as taking the wood and loading it onto Isaac his son. Genesis Rabba comments on this, “like one who carries his cross . . . upon his shoulder.” A moment later Abraham is shown building an altar and setting out the wood upon it; he then binds Isaac and puts him “upon the altar, on top of the wood” . . . . In the NT model, in the fulness of time another comes to the place of sacrifice, carrying his “wood”/“cross” (cf. John 19:17), and is put upon it (cf. esp. 1 Pet 2:24 . . . ). We thus argue that behind the present context in Galatians 3 there is an earlier midrashic link between Gen 22:6-9 and Deut 21:22-23 by way of the common term … ξύλον …). That this has external confirmation we may see from (Ps.)-Tertullian, Adv. Iudaeos 10:6,

… Isaac, when led by his father as a victim, and himself bearing his own “wood,” was even at that period pointing to Christ’s death; conceded, as he was, as a victim by the Father; carrying, as he did, the “wood” of his own passion.

In short what is proposed is that the earliest Christians sprung from a Jewish faction that had integrated a son of man/son of God entity. Some of their writings are still available. Paul seems to be introducing the concept of the death of that entity through purely Midrashic means. IOW perceiving it from interpretation of passages in the Tanakh and related works. His contribution to the formation of Christianity as we know it was " Christ hung on a tree (crucified)".

It's not hard then to imagine the link to the Roman practice of crucifixion on a cross. It cannot be precisely identified who first made this link as the work of Paul have been heavily redacted and selected and very little else has survived from this period. However, by the time the narrative Gospels came along the link to the Roman practice and period was fully established. Therefore, as Wells finally concluded it would be possible an actual historical person's execution became integrated into the Christ composition. This person/s may have been someone from an earlier period such as the Teacher of Righteousness who was killed by the religious leadership or someone like the Jesus the prophet who was supposedly killed with a Roman catapult in Josephus or one of the many would be reformers and messiahs.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

Maybe I need to clarify. My point is simply that it's rather silly and pointless to debate whether the NT authors meant cross or stake. While I personally believe many of the texts themselves strongly indicate 'cross' and the arguments of the WT for 'stake' are inaccurate at best, I wouldn't try to argue for the use of a cross because of a timeline, seeing as the timelines differ.

Further I'm kind of leaning toward the hypothesis that the earliest layers of Christianity saw the merging of a heavenly 'son of man/son of God' cult with any number of historical personages such as the teacher of righteousness from Qumran. Paul seems to represent an intermediate stage. A few decades later in Rome the anonymous work later named the Gospel of Mark appears to be one of the earliest narrative tales stringing together OT typological elements in Midrashic style to create a new story depicting this new hybrid character engaging in miracles, fulfilling "prophecies" and exposing the established religious order as corrupt. To write that narrative the author naturally drew from the idiom and motifs of the literature of Homer.

In line with that reconstruction, I find the Wells, Doherty proposals persuasive. One of the most difficult aspects of Doherty's hypothesis is why the earliest Christians might have envisioned a Christ being 'crucified' by spirits upon a cross in a lower heaven. In my estimation a tree represents a much easier proposal. Much like the Ascension of Isaiah reads:

14 And the god of that world will stretch out [his hand against the Son], and they will lay their hands upon him and hang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is.

33

Museum Pic

by peacefulpete in

a lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross.

the wt felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how jesus was understood to have been killed.

there was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some nt writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind.

peacefulpete

A lot of ink has been spilled on the topic of the cross. The WT felt it had uncovered some deep conspiracy when they found a number of words were used to describe how Jesus was understood to have been killed. There was an extensive thread many years ago that in short strongly supports the conclusion that at least some NT writers envisioned a cross, while others had a tree in mind. The point is simple, it was an evolving idea (even while the NT was being formed) that may well have been influenced by the Roman tradition of crucifixion while perceiving a tree in the earliest layers of the legend. Again, we will never know.

Went to the Louvre last week and saw this famous statue. It's a scene from the Dionysus myth. Zues has sex with a human and has a son. Hera his wife is very angry and tries to have him killed. Zues hides him and has him tutored by a wise old Satyr named Silenus who raises him like a son. Eventually Silenus is bound to a tree and killed. My point is not to suggest direct lifting of the Jesus story from the mythos around them but that these traditions were certainly in the air. Does it matter? Nope.

13

Ice Skating on Eiffel Tower?

by peacefulpete in

jw
friends

my wife and i are heading to paris for christmas this year.

it's a landmark year for all sorts of reasons, milestone anniversary her milestone birthday, and my recovery.

she loves ice skating.

peacefulpete

OK we are back. Had a nice time, Knew we'd never see everything and didn't try. And to answer the initial question, NO there is no skating on or under the Eiffel tower. The train/subway system was easy to use, always felt safe. Saw lots of beautiful architecture.

22

The Holy Spirit

by Leolaia in

this was posted originally in the rodney dangerfield thread......

i don't really know much about the trinity other than what i was told as a jw but it does seem to me that the holy ghost is definitely running a distant third in the popularity contest.

when jws get into arguments with trinitarians, it's almost always about whether jesus is god, isn't it?

peacefulpete

jhine..that brief description doesn't begin to reveal the story. Anyway, we all hope he got the care he needed; he had a brilliant but troubled mind.

32

DID YOU KNOW - about Event 201? (Two months before the virus outbreak a simulation/discussion among the elite)

by Terry in

jw
friends

(event 201).

“event 201” was an exercise organized in october 2019 to simulate what might happen if there was a severe pandemic.. it invited people from business, government, and public health to simulate coordinating a policy response to a theoretical pandemic.. .

what was the event?.

peacefulpete

I'm saddened by this despicable misrepresentation of the people who plan and protect our lives. My wife is an emergency manager, and her role is in part to do exercises and do detailed continuity of operation plans They involve emergency services teams and political figures annually. They have recently used terrorist, disease, chemical spill and tornados as the scenarios. Gates and world health organizations saw in the 2015 Ebola outbreak that we needed to improve global readiness and has sponsored exercises to that end. The fact that what everyone knew was inevitable happened, is proof we need more such planning, planning that conspiracy theorists and political hacks apparently don't know, or don't appreciate, takes place regularly for their safety. Our society is truly sick.