Fish...take some time reviewing the SDA solution. They clung to 1833 and 1844 and still do but they invented a new period of judgement to fill the void. The still hold the judgment began in 1844 and that those that were alive then have been irrevocably judged. They simply say the judgement period continues on till closed at some point in near future. They decoupled the mini apocalypse of the Gospels from their Daniel and Revelation interpretations. Dates are not that important , it just takes some creativity to move forward after failure. It's an interesting sociological study learning how churches have adapted from their own short sighted beginnings.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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peacefulpete
OK, the comments I made a few posts before should be clarified for the sake of accuracy. I had too many tabs open and conflated some of what I was reading. i guess the SDA have dropped the whole sign of the end thing and see it as referring to only Jerusalem. according to this article,
(https://adventist.news/news/expert-explains-about-plagues-armageddon-and-jesus-return?searchsite=www.adventist.org&ref=on-site-search&searchterm=matthew+24%3A34&_gl=1*n7mx5y*_ga*MjA0Nzk1ODA2MS4xNjcxMTMxMjA5*_ga_2VBYH6KEBQ*MTY3MTEzMTIwOC4xLjEuMTY3MTEzMTg4My4wLjAuMA..&_ga=2.135503864.855966133.1671131210-2047958061.1671131209)
they see only the sign of the son of man as the sole sign of the end days. That makes the 'generation' declaration seem as fulfilled in entirety. A tidy solution.
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Watchtower Study : Jehovah Is Helping You To Succeed
by RULES & REGULATIONS inthe watchtower—study edition | january 2023. study article 3. jehovah is helping you to succeed.
how jehovah makes you successful.
13. does jehovah intervene in every situation we face?
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peacefulpete
I can see Jehovah’s loving hand throughout my son’s illness
That is actually a profoundly truthful statement. Religious belief is the ability to see God's hand in anything, even tragedy. It is a perceptional lens that, when working, is unfalsifiable.
When we were on a missionary trip we saw God's hand in the availability of a house for us to stay in. Later that house turned out to be flood prone and underwater half the year, we saw it as a test that God helped us over come rather than reconsider our initial conclusion. -
89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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peacefulpete
Slimboy...If you were responding to my comment, I was just mentioning the SDA growth as a response to the doctrinal stance. It didn't make a whit of difference. These churches have survived the vulnerable stages and are here to stay. Those who envision a collapse of the WT over 1914 do not have history in their favor. These groups plod along making slight adjustments but have essentially created their own subcultures within the societies they exist. I know ancient religions have passed but usually because the societies they existed in were erased or subsumed by political means. If America and it's allies were conquered by Russia for a modern example, the WT, SDA and LDS would likely disappear, not really wishing for that to happen. lol
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89
Myth of 1914
by peacefulpete inthe wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.
millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.
take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.
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peacefulpete
The SDA example is perhaps suggestive of what the result would be if they altered their doctrine. I found an article from 1989 that 'resolved' the failure of the end to appear in the "generation" of the 1833 falling stars etc. Many SDA's had found ways to reinterpret the word 'generation' through the years without arriving at a satisfying permanent solution. The 1989 article simply offered that prophecy was "dynamic" and God, while remaining unchanged in his determination, can alter his specific plan at will. They used "seeming" failed prophecies in the OT as examples of this. In this way the prediction remains on the books but becomes unfalsifiable/undisprovable. Their growth since then hasn't been unusually good nor any worse than the decades before 1989. They presently claim to have about 21 million members.
The WT overlapping generations approach to resolve the same issue seems less efficient. It is similarly unfalsifiable in that it can perpetuate indefinitely, but it awkwardly strains the wording of that one passage and leaves one feeling unsatisfied and confused. The SDA approach IMO is functionally superior, in that it appears to be taking a 'rational' flexible approach to prophecy as a whole. Much harder to argue against.
I don't see much really changing no matter what they eventually do. I know I've said it many times, but IMO doctrine just differentiates one church group from other churches it's less important for recruitment or retention of membership. That is the result of a welcoming sense of community and group identity. True sometimes specific unusual doctrine becomes inseparable from identity, (like Armstrong's WWC of God with Sabbath and faith healing) and a change would precipitates a serious loss of membership. For the WT it might be their 'earth paradise' doctrine or their ant-trinitarianism. But peripheral stuff like this can be accommodated easily as the numerous previous changes in the WT teaching about 1914/18 over the years has shown.
Again, IMO, they need to address this festering wound. Either the approach of the SDA would work or some other open ended rational sounding way to diminish the importance of the 607/1914 dates is necessary.
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Bit of Watchtower History
by vienne inprobably some of you read uncle b's history blog.
the article at the end of this link was contributed to show rutherford's activity in britain, especially his appearances at royal albert hall.. https://truthhistory.blogspot.com/2022/12/the-royal-albert-hall.html.
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peacefulpete
Too bad the blog doesn't include the speeches so people can learn what was said at those lectures. The failed explicit prophesies don't age well.
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21
Keep telling yourself that!
by Lost in the fog inin the latest copy of the elders textbook someone kindly made available to us on this website, i see that "independently organized meetings for spiritual feeding" are still not allowed.
no wonder because independent research would let the scales fall from the eyes.. the gb still insisting that they are guided by the (always lower case) holy spirit and the bible!!
not that the rank and file members need the bible or holy spirit themselves because they are fed through meetings, conventions, assemblies, jw broadcasting and the publications.
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peacefulpete
Interesting, Some newboy GB must have agreed to that then got overruled.
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21
Keep telling yourself that!
by Lost in the fog inin the latest copy of the elders textbook someone kindly made available to us on this website, i see that "independently organized meetings for spiritual feeding" are still not allowed.
no wonder because independent research would let the scales fall from the eyes.. the gb still insisting that they are guided by the (always lower case) holy spirit and the bible!!
not that the rank and file members need the bible or holy spirit themselves because they are fed through meetings, conventions, assemblies, jw broadcasting and the publications.
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peacefulpete
About 45 years ago we had the idea of getting together with other young people and prepare for the WT study. We did it a few weeks with pizza or snacks afterward. The CO put it to an end to it with heavy condemnation suggesting it would lead to apostasy. lol
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why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
The Israelites made a golden calf and called it a festival to Jehovah..
Yahweh is often represented as bull god, in both the OT and iconography. The Exodus story isn't objecting to the bull per se but the idol. You must remember that these stories were compiled and redacted to serve a purpose. This one is an anti-idolatry tale that appears to be specifically responding to the Jeroboam use of the bull idols in Dan and Bethel. Ironically it likely preserves the pre-exilic tradition of depicting Yahweh as a or with a bull/ox.
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39
why celebrate xmas?
by enoughisenough inmany on here are ex jw....they have left the jws because of coming to find out the many false indoctrinations.
one of the things learned as a jw is that there isn't anything true about xmas being the birth of jesus.
( matt chapter 2 tells a whole different narrative about the baby jesus than what is portrayed by the christian churches) they learn the ways that are celebrated are pagan practices jesus told the samaritan woman that god wanted to be worshipped in spirit and it truth.
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peacefulpete
enough...we all understand what you are saying because we all would have agreed with you at some point. Seeing things a new way takes time and the right bits of information to fall into the right places. For most Christians since the NT celebrates the birth of Jesus with heavenly choruses and gift giving they feel it is appropriate to do the same. Non Christians appreciate the best aspects of the Jesus tradition and embrace the charity and joy.