peacefulpete

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Posts by peacefulpete

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  3

  Great books for Gospel Research

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  among the first books i acquired in my research was an old copy of a harmony of the synoptic gospels for historical and critical study by burton and goodspeed.

  before that i had heard others speak of the 'synoptic problem' but it was meaningless to me and just sounded like quackery meant to discredit the bible.

  i have to say this one volume's laying out the synoptic gospels (matt,mark,luke) without any commentary in a side by side parallel format rocked my world.

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  peacefulpete

  Glad someone enjoys this subject. Learning about Christian origins is extremely valuable for former JWs. There are some who have been separated from the WT church for many years who just haven't been able to move on. They appear frozen in their minds, unsure of what to believe about specific doctrinal debates but assume the WT indoctrination was essentially "true". Some seem almost afraid to investigate

  I don't really understand that because IMO the best aspects of Christianity (ideals of selfless love and charity, can still be appreciated with an informed understanding of how religion evolves and adapts.
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  2022 - Jehovah's Witness Video of the Year

  by was a new boy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my pick.. https://youtu.be/vyjmgf7kf-4.

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  peacefulpete

  When used appropriately caveats and qualifiers are entirely appropriate. The listener must recognize the intent is to present a possible, maybe even a probable, explanation. When they are used excessively however, they get tuned out and become mere expressions of feigned humility. The manipulative intent can be to present this image of humility as well as provide deniability for failure.
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  Article excerpted from http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/dss.htm
  

  Pre-Daniel Traditions 4Q242 Even before the discovery of the DSS, Wolfram von Soden posited that the stories about Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 3 and 4 were actually stories told about Nabonidus. According to ancient Mesopotamia sources Nabonidus was the father of king Belshazzar, not Nebuchadnezzar as Daniel 5:2 states.

  It seems that 4Q242 preserves a tradition that pre-dates the Biblical text of Daniel. It seems that a scribe copying (or redacting) the Book of Daniel changed the name of the lesser known Nabonidus to the better known Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

  Non-Biblical Traditions of Daniel 4QPseudo-Daniel (4Q243-244-245) has a different perspective on history which starts in Genesis, but Daniel starts with the exiles. It seems that these fragments reflect a mixture of Enoch and Daniel traditions before the Book of Daniel was written.
  

  4Q246 Aramaic Apocalypse or "Son of God Text" refers to a figure called "Son of God" and "Son of the Most High." This may be background for the Christology of Luke (Luke 1:32,35). This fragment seems to be dependent on Daniel 7 especially verses 14 and 27.

  4Q552-553 Four Kingdoms preserves a vision of four trees which represent four kingdoms. One tree is identified with Babylon, and another with Persia. This vision may have developed from the Book of Daniel vision of one tree. Scrolls of the Book of Daniel There are eight copies of the Book of Daniel found in Qumran Caves 1, 4, and 6. They are 1Q71-2, 4Q112-116, and 6Q7pap. The Hebrew and Aramaic sections are preserved. Generally the texts follow the Masoretic tradition, but there are some important differences (See Charlesworth, The Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Vol.1, p.161).

  Prayer of Nabonidus 4Q242

  [1] Words of the prayer, said by Nabonidus, king of Babylonia, [the great] king, [when afflicted]

  [2] with an ulcer on command of the most high God in Tayma:

  ["I, Nabonidus,] was afflicted [with an evil ulcer]

  [3] for seven years, and far from [men] I [was driven, until I prayed to the most high God.] And

  [4] an exorcist pardoned my sins. He was a Jew from [among the children of the exile of Judah, and said:]

  [5] "Recount this in writing to glorify and exalt the name of [the most high God."Then I wrote this:] "When

  [67] I was afflicted for seven years [by the most high God] with an evil ulcer during my stay at Tayma,

  [7] I prayed [to] the gods of silver and gold, [bronze and iron,] wood, stone and lime,{{It is interesting to notice that the line "have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron,

  [8] wood and stone"

  [the end is missing]

  
  

  
  
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  3

  Great books for Gospel Research

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  among the first books i acquired in my research was an old copy of a harmony of the synoptic gospels for historical and critical study by burton and goodspeed.

  before that i had heard others speak of the 'synoptic problem' but it was meaningless to me and just sounded like quackery meant to discredit the bible.

  i have to say this one volume's laying out the synoptic gospels (matt,mark,luke) without any commentary in a side by side parallel format rocked my world.

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  peacefulpete

  Among the first books I acquired in my research was an old copy of A Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels for Historical and Critical Study by Burton and Goodspeed. Before that I had heard others speak of the 'Synoptic Problem' but it was meaningless to me and just sounded like quackery meant to discredit the Bible. I have to say this one volume's laying out the Synoptic Gospels (Matt,Mark,Luke) without any commentary in a side by side parallel format rocked my world. I spent dozens of hours with colored pencil's highlighting exact phrasing and words. I got a little sloppy at times and missed stuff the first time through but it was abundantly clear what I was seeing was a literary dependence of one Gospel to another not simply independent witnesses confirming the accuracy of the story as I had been told. Two people can say essentially the same this but they will not use the same sentences and word choice. Sometimes it is as simple as laying out things carefully for comparison to see the process of composition and editing, seeing what was there all along but since we were told they were separate works we never noticed the obvious intertextuality. Here is a pic of my marked up book:

  
  

  Since then I have found other similar works that utilize different translations and add more parallels to non-Canonical gospels and even quotations from church fathers. Here are a couple good ones.

  Synopsis of the Four Gospels; Greek/English edition ~ Kurt Aland, (In just English also)
  

  Gospel Parallels: A synopsis of the First Three Gospels ~ Ed. Burton H. Throckmorton. Jr.

  
  
  
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  The handling of available data is the issue, I understand that. The data that they and we have access to is more than enough to discredit their dogma.
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  Jeffro...I used esoteric to describe the prophets' usage not you. I value your exhaustive work. I just see a simpler explanation that doesn't involve lending credence to the literalist perspective. You and Scholar have passionately argued alternate timelines that require a precision and certitude we just can't possibly have. Tomorrow a new improved timeline may come as it has many times before. You have effectively pointed out the inconsistencies and glosses required to believe the WT dogma. Your work is valuable in showing the simplistic formula used by the WT is erroneous.

  I fear for some posters here, debates about minutia almost adds to the legitimacy of the idea of divining future dates by establishing past ones. I guess for many my fixation on the synoptic problem and OT composition looks the same way.

  Scholar.... just for giggles, shouldn't the 70 years have been 360 days long since it was a prophecy? Doesn't that result in the 70 years being actually 69 years and change? Or should we just change the length of the cubit like Russell?
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  What it boils down to is that if I am right, JWs are wrong, and if I am wrong about some aspects, JWs are still wrong.

  That's about what I said. I agree. So I guess any further comment would be moot.
  
  
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  Funny thing scholar is that I was were you are, I know what you know, I experienced just about all there was to be experienced as a JW. I used to sit with F.Franz in the sauna and listen to his ravings. I heard the infighting and debates carried on in the elevators and halls. I read the books the WT writers quote mined and marked up in the "research library". I got emotionally abused by the system that I devoted my life to. I was there when a dysfunctional foreign branch office was rebuilt by other dysfunctional people. My assigned congregation was impoverished in every respect. I've seen the system work and I've seen it fail miserably. I'm not ignorant of the sincerity of some nor am I ignorant of the duplicity of others. It's a church, nothing more.
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  349

  Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Godlyman in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

  estephan.

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  peacefulpete

  Jeffro...Obviously chronology is a passion of yours. Clearly you have spent a great deal of time on this topic and I'm not suggesting what you have done was worthless. However, I've read a number of well argued articles who similarly found ways to work the math with the objective of defending Bible literalness. IMO, and that is all it is, the point is mute. If you are correct that the 70 year topos, while referring to slightly different things for different authors, can be understood through various math formulas to be close to literal 70 years I'll not debate your numbers. You are making the point that the oversimplified interpretation of the WT or others are certainly not correct and cannot by any stretch be an anchor date for scaffolding a church upon.

  As I see it, there are just toooooo many variables and potential starting and ending points to convince me that any calculation is the last word in interpreting exactly what some ancient cryptic mystics meant. For me those esoteric and peculiar usages by both Yahwists and non-Yahwists combined with the prolific numeric symbolism present in the OT add up to the expression resembling a figure of speech or trope. 7 times 10 =70. A sacred number times a sacred number equals a sacred number. Why 70 years defined as a typical lifespan? Why not 71? Why 70 nations, why 70 sons............

  Never in a million years, once in a blue moon, in a coons age, a month of Sundays, years on end, light years away, These are modern proxies, void of any sacredness they still mean something other than what a literalist 2500 years from might assume.
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  18

  Striving for more

  by punkofnice in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i hate my life!

  i have to say it, but i do.. i have a sneaking suspicion that because i was raised in the dangerous jehovah borgness cult, that this is the reason.

  i was told if god didn't watch me masturbating or smoking, then he'd let me live forever in perfect conditions.. i left the borg and as a result my jw wife left me and re-married another gung ho jobo.

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  peacefulpete

  IMO religion, at least those which promise something bigger than reality, do people a disservice. Reality is pretty amazing without needing to imagine something better. I'm not just saying the huge scale and variety of the universe, I mean something more grounded. What a trip this life is, a pretty damn cool thing to have gotten a turn at looking around and experiencing it. Not in any hurry for it to end but know it will. That gives value to time.