Yes I know the vengeful formulation of the Deuteronomists. It reflects the worst of human nature, wishing ill upon the children of our enemies. Today the Geneva Convention specifically renounces it but even as far back as Ezekiel's final form they condemned it as crime. Having been exposed to the Christian doctrine of vicarious human sacrifice from youth on we may not appreciate the deep moral dilemma it posed to Jews.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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Each for his own sins
by peacefulpete inis not the notion of one person dying for the sins of another rejected in this famous passage?.
20 the one who sins is the one who will die.
the child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.
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Each for his own sins
by peacefulpete inis not the notion of one person dying for the sins of another rejected in this famous passage?.
20 the one who sins is the one who will die.
the child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.
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peacefulpete
Is not the notion of one person dying for the sins of another rejected in this famous passage?
20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Judaism includes many notions of redemption, however the idea of redemption is the paying to Yahweh what was owed him through compliance and rite not by the death of some innocent person. This was a leap that most Jews just could not make. It was a cosmic injustice.
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
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Jehovah delivers sand for a Kingdom Hall project in Micronesia
by RULES & REGULATIONS inyou cannot make this up: financial help and the hand of jehovah complete project.
january 2016 jw broadcasting..... video starts at 35:30. a local design construction department manager named travis brooks tells a story about a building project on the island of yap, micronesia.
a small kingdom hall needs to be expanded because the facility wasn't big enough for those in attendance.
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peacefulpete
Joey, its true sea sand is less ideal but much of the developing world uses it. Properly rinsed of salt it can work fine unless it needs to be engineered for proscribed strength. They built an entire KH in S. America using sand under our feet, portland cement and 4 brick molds. Yes, it took a while. I was there one day, and I think we made a dozen bricks.
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jeconiah cursed
by peacefulpete inin matthews fictional geneaology of jesus he includes jeconiah (aka jehoiachin, coniah), why?
jeconiah was cursed in jeremiah 22:24 and 22:30:.
"as surely as i live," declares the lord, "even if you, jehoiachin son of jehoiakim king of judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, i would still pull you off.. .
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peacefulpete
Just thought some might find this thread again if it was picked up where it left off. To continue the discussion of the two irreconcilable genealogies I'll point out something else. The listing of Nathan (son of David) as the progenitor of Jesus might have had another intent beyond just addressing Matt's unawareness of the Jeconiah curse. There is some evidence that Nathan the prophet and Nathan the son of David were conflated in the minds of many by the time the Gospel Luke was completed. At least it was assumed that the Nathan son of David was a prophet by association of his name Nathan with Nathan the prophet. If so then the inclusion of a prestigious prophet would add to Jesus' clout as a prophet. Eusebius mentions this matter: in QUESTIONES EVANGELICAE AD STEPHANUM, III.2
For differing opinions concerning the Messiah prevail among the Jews though all agree in leading [the pedigree] up to David, because of the promise of God to David. But yet some are persuaded that the Messiah will come from David and Solomon and the royal line while others eschew this opinion because serious accusation was levelled against the kings and because Jeconiah was denounced by the prophet Jeremiah and because it was said that no seed from him [Jeconiah] should arise to sit on the throne of David. For these reasons, therefore, they go another way, agreeing [with the descent] from David; not however, through Solomon but rather through Nathan, who was a child (παῖς) of David (they say that Nathan also prophesied, according to what is said in the books of Kings). They are certain that the Messiah would come forth from the successors of Nathan and trace the ancestry of Joseph from that point. Therefore, Luke, necessarily taking account of their opinion — though it was not his own — added to his account the ὡς ἐνομίζετο [=as was supposed]. In doing this he allowed Matthew to relate [the matter], not on the basis of supposition but as having the truth in the matters of genealogy.
Further, the following passage in Zechariah that was interpreted as a reference to Jesus in John 19:37 mentions four houses (name) all of whom are those in Luke's genealogy. :
ZECHARIAH 12:10-14
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rim′mon in the plain of Megid′do. 12 The land shall mourn, each family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shim′e-ites (Simeon) by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 and all the families that are left, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.
This would suggest importance, some expectation regarding those 4 names (including Nathan) among at least some Jews.
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Jehovah delivers sand for a Kingdom Hall project in Micronesia
by RULES & REGULATIONS inyou cannot make this up: financial help and the hand of jehovah complete project.
january 2016 jw broadcasting..... video starts at 35:30. a local design construction department manager named travis brooks tells a story about a building project on the island of yap, micronesia.
a small kingdom hall needs to be expanded because the facility wasn't big enough for those in attendance.
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peacefulpete
Seriously? Is this for real? Are they really saying their god caused a typhoon strong enough to flood the streets with offshore sand so the JWs can build a church? Can you imagine the locals whose homes were destroyed being told this story? Good luck making converts there.
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
As to dating the Gospels then we have shockingly little to be certain of. What appear to be terminus ad quem are rather tissue thin arguments. It is quite possible the Gospels as we have them were, shall we say, popularized very late easily the mid 2nd century. What we do see in all the church writers of the first few centuries is a huge diversity of understanding of a narrative. e.g When this Christ died, if he died, if he had a prehuman form, did he do miracles, his nativity, on and on, the most basic stuff a Sunday school student could recite was not a consensus for hundreds of years. Surely this bears on this question, church leaders of the first centuries CE either did not know about these stories or they knew others or maybe they knew many stories but preferred some not now preserved, it's a deeply complex issue. Indisputably however the 4 Gospels in our modern canon were not the foundational documents of the earliest Christians. . I fear we may never know much more till another cache of writings is unearthed. -
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
HTBWC...While I do feel Markan priority has very strong support when discussing the works as we have them it is possible the Marcionite gospel was some form of Ur-Mark, an early edition before later harmonizations with Mtt and Luke. G.John is truly interesting, yes it betrays multiple redactions and additions but the core material has a flavor unlike the others in the modern canon. Many have assumed the mystical nature necessitates a late date, assuming a direction of influence toward the mystical/spiritual as I mentioned before. Our better understanding of the diverse Jewish religious thought with broader access to Qumran material and recent reanalysis of writers like Philo and other works from the era no longer suggests that must be so. It is quite plausible that some early form of the work we call John, with it's so-called high Christology, was very early but not favored by those who we might call a proto-orthodoxy (and hence resisted.) until redacted extensively
The very origins of Christianity are at the center of this topic of gospel writing. It is my present opinion that Christianity had a soft start, a natural evolution of thought originating hundreds of years BC. That's not a terribly controversial idea to many who are familiar with anti-temple Judaism and Hellenized Judaism of the period. What this means about dating this material is.
Ellegard has argued, (not the first) that the central character of the Gospels is a confluence of personages, notable the Teacher of Righteousness of the Qumran community who embodied the Christ concept to a T. He feels Paul is the main architect in reinvigorating the concepts and narrative. Paul seems to be saying his only real contribution to an already existing movement is the idea that this Christ was crucified for sins. Whether he intended to be understood as placing that event on earth in recent history or having a revelation that this occurred in the past in a heavenly realm is under much debate. Regardless his intent at least some early Paulinists sought a earthly narrative to facilitate religious instruction and Gospels began appearing. Sayings Gospels and narrative Gospels each a creative work but with some relationship to others that came before. Dozens of them, sadly we have only a few left. Ironically these Gospels change the nature of and course of Christianity. Equally ironic is that what was to become the orthodoxy was rather reluctant to embrace Paul himself, that is until they had expanded upon and redacted his body of material.
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Announcement December 3, 2020 FOR CONGREGATIONS
by pixel inannouncement.
december 3, 2020. for congregations.
1. covid-19 vaccine information: several covid-19 vaccines may soon be approved and.
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peacefulpete
We do not attempt to make choices for others.
That's Precious.
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Friend Is Worried About My “Mental Health”...lol
by minimus inone of my tennis friends who happens also to be a nurse, told me today that he is concerned about my mental health because i support donald trump.
i believe he got shafted but i also recognize that very little will probably change regarding his being re-elected.
this man voted for the “green” candidate and said he personally agrees with most of trump’s views but he thinks he’s morally corrupt.
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peacefulpete
The entire election cycle was huge mental health issue. I have friends losing sleep and others ready to take up arms. Becoming indignant and heated about things we cannot control is simply unhealthy, and its unhealthy to our relationships.
UNPLUG
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
<I missed the comment about Apostle John not being the writer of G John. I think that is widely recognized by critical scholarship. It was debated by prominent Christians for centuries. The best answer IMO when debating those who insist upon an Apostle John as being the author is 21: 24
This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
Clearly "we" means a group of people who are ostensibly using works supplied by "the disciple" . G.John at least as we have it, is a community work. That's why those who used it are referred to as a Johannine Christians. Interesting of course is the most basic question of authorship, the community that produced G.John as we now call it, themselves never said John much less identifying which John as there were a number. I think you mentioned the possibility that the work was intended to be understood as a work of Lazarus or Mary Magdelene (pseudepigraphically in both cases) the one identified so clearly as the one Jesus loved. I like the hypothesis, it's letting the text speak for itself. Likely the guy living a couple hundred years later that gave all the titles to the Gospels (one person a did this as is evident by all titles being identical in construction and use of unusual word "according to") thought it was John.