I should have also said that the direction of dependence isn't of greatest importance either. If the author/redactor of G.John was in fact the source for the Lukan parable, (which you seem to be suggesting and which is not impossible), the relationship still reveals the methods of these authors.
peacefulpete
JoinedPosts by peacefulpete
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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The problem with Capitalism!---Billionaires
by pistolpete inas imperfect and flawed capitalism is, it has worked better than other forms of economic and political systems-so far.
it’s very simple in “theory.” capitalism is an economic and-or, political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
in other words, keep government out of it as much as possible.
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peacefulpete
The Khmer Rouge was xenophobic, racist and hyper nationalistic. A very potent warning. -
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
HTBWC...I have sympathy for that position but it should be clarified. The Johannine priority hypothesis suggests large parts of the book are later redactions with a core of 'gnostic like' symbolisms and metaphor. It's true the work as we have it betrays heavy editing and interpolation, perhaps even more than can be convincingly argued. In effect what the hypothesis says is that much of the narrative we are discussing was post Synoptic, which really then doesn't negate the process we were discussing. Anyway, I'm sympathetic as I said, as I see the origins of Christianity in the mystery religion tradition through the Essenes. But ultimately for discussions of literary dependence of individual pericopes the Johannine priority hypothesis doesn't really matter if the narrative was secondary anyway.
And yes I see the "brothers" of the "rich man" as fellow Pharisees and that adds to the argument of literary relationship.
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
Hey Bobcat. I read your article and it is pretty clear we are not coming at the topic from the same perspective.
Sometimes for the sake of brevity I may use language that might appear to be suggesting historicity but that clearly was not the anonymous authors' focus. The freeness to invent and reimagine OT and Jesus stories displayed in Jewish and Christian writings requires we understand these as works of faith and polemics not historical records. Even if the writers assumed a historical kernel within some stories they felt no restraint when utilizing the material. Further, the manuscript evidence reveals not only scribal error and displacement but deliberate attempts at harmonization and editing.
Simply said I see the author of John engaging in reimagining the Lukan parable as a narrative. I'm convinced there is enough points of connection to make that identification.
It's similar to the fig tree parable known to the author of (Luke 8)as a parable but Mark reimagined as a narrative acted out by Jesus (Mark 11). The author of Mark apparently was the first to do this then the author of Matt took Mark's narrative and modified it considerably to match his ideals of Jesus and to fit the flow of his story (Matt 21). To further illustrate the processes the Apocalypse of Peter (early to mid 2nd CE and regarded as scripture in the Muratorian Fragment.) includes the fig tree pericope in parable form but has further elaborated upon and added dialog (narrative) between Jesus and Peter. ( The Apocalypse of Peter (translation by M. R. James) (earlychristianwritings.com) Ethiopic fragment.
Take this one example and repeat a similar process hundreds of times and you have a picture of how the Gospels took their form. Also, trying to harmonize the Gospels geographically and chronologically is a doomed task without extensive creativity.
Its my view that Mark was intended to be understood as parable from beginning to end, he clarifies early that initiated Christians alone could understand the meaning in his writing. Whether the authors/revisers of Matt Luke also wrote with this mystery approach or had they made the mistake of simply reading it as a narrative (but still had no qualms modifying it as a teaching tool) I'm not sure. It seems to me that the added legend and embellishments they bring to the story betray a more orthodox understanding.
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peacefulpete
Finky, you may be right about the feigning fraud aspect. The attorneys are just going through the motions while pundits make wild assertions in the media. Fundraising might be a all it is for but there's also lots of money to be made in media after the election fades for the rest of us. I think he wants to be a media superstar afterward and to ensure his public base is loyal he needs to rewrite the narrative now. Also, I don't think much of anything will come by way of prosecutions, too much money involved and the attention of the public will have shifted.
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peacefulpete
Its hard to understand the blinding desperate need to win that is driving all this. To actually appeal to the Pennsylvania State supreme court to toss 6.9 millions votes (the entire State's voters) to have party underlings give the electors to Trump is as corrupt and undemocratic as anything seen in American history. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/pennsylvania-high-court-throws-out-challenge-mail-ballots-n1249240
Even the cluster F***k of 2000 Florida doesn't rise to this level of attempted voter disenfranchisement. To read more about that mess: https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/us/examining-vote-overview-study-disputed-florida-ballots-finds-justices-did-not.html
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More Mary Martha and Lazarus
by peacefulpete inin a previous thread discussing the rich man and lazarus parable in luke, the relationship of this parable to the lazarus resurrection story arose.
as i said in that thread i'm pretty convinced that the writer of john fleshed out this character in the rich man& lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named lazarus.
the reasons essentially are:.
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peacefulpete
In a previous thread discussing the Rich Man and Lazarus parable in Luke, the relationship of this parable to the Lazarus resurrection story arose. As I said in that thread I'm pretty convinced that the writer of John fleshed out this character in the Rich Man& Lazarus parable into a narrative featuring a man named Lazarus. The reasons essentially are:
1. The person of Lazarus John has created in the resurrection of Lazarus story is unknown by any of the previous three forms of the Gospel he used as source material. Which quite unlikely if this was a previously known tradition due to the significance of the scene and a purported close relationship with Jesus, ("the one you love")
2. The Lazarus parable features the appeal to be resurrected and the John story is all about resurrection.
3. The rich man has been identified as symbolizing the religious elite (Scribes and Pharisees) and his appeal to return to earth to convince his "brothers" to believe in Jesus is rebuffed because "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." In the John story, that is precisely was happens, someone rises from the dead but the Scribes and Pharisees are not convinced and plot Jesus' death.
This literary relationship has long been seen and I feel the evidence speaks strongly that the author of G.John was adapting the Lukan parable into a narrative, something done in the gospel tradition in a number of instances.
OK.. Now to share something I hadn't remembered when I last posted. The manuscript evidence that in fact the two sisters named Mary and Martha may originally have been just a single character Mary.
Yes Luke 10 depicts a Martha and Mary in "a village" who had a house. I had assumed the author John had drawn from this Lukan story for his chapter 11 Lazarus story. That may not have been the case. Elisabeth Schrader has made some interesting connections by using the earliest textual tradition and perceiving a pattern. (Evangelical Textual Criticism: Elisabeth Schrader)
In short, the manuscripts may be revealing a problem with the names and characters in John 11, specifically surrounding the character Mary/aka Maria. The first clue was a big one, the oldest manuscript (P66) of John displays a deliberate editing out of the name Maria to Martha, (one letter, iota to theta). It also shows a deliberate redaction from "Mary" to "the sisters" at verse 3. The manuscript variations in this chapter are many,(hundreds of variations in defining the characters) and most may be best explained by a deliberate diminishing of the role of this Mary (who Schrader identifies as Mary Magdelene) and the spitting of one character into two. The Luke 10 (Mary and Martha's house) episode facilitating the transformation.
There are perfectly plausible explanations of each and every particular issue E. Schrader has compiled so there is no necessity to assume she is correct, (The Text of the Gospels: Mary, Martha, and John 11) however her thesis does offer a plausible explanation for a wide number of issues in the manuscript evidence.
It is also a bit peculiar the way the John 11:2 interruption anticipates the anointing feet scene in chapter 12. It is almost as if the anointing scene was displaced to appear right after the Lazarus resurrection scene closer to Jesus's death or we have an editorial interpolation as verse 2.
Thoughts?
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The problem with Capitalism!---Billionaires
by pistolpete inas imperfect and flawed capitalism is, it has worked better than other forms of economic and political systems-so far.
it’s very simple in “theory.” capitalism is an economic and-or, political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
in other words, keep government out of it as much as possible.
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peacefulpete
I think again everyone has agreed that basic capitalism under a democratic method of selecting leadership has proven to the most successful at sustaining a decent standard of living. And I think we all have agreed that not all of society's needs can be addressed using market economics and competition alone. Some social safety net and governmental oversight is needed.
Market forces are good at making cars and shoes but lousy at ensuring human rights and safety are protected. Capitalism tends to be short sighted, the imperative to be efficient and competitive pressures industry leaders to bring to market products that supply profit not necessarily best serve the people. At times when the issues require foresight and public sacrifice too often the industrial machinery is actually obstructive. Like I said before no one wants to sell health insurance to sick and elderly people. No industry wants to retool and engage in expensive research to change methods of production for the benefit of future generations or to prevent cancer that may only appear 20 years later. Green washing and corporate platitudes are now part of the game, industry spends billions on market slogans and disinformation. I don't know anyone who would disagree with what I've said so far.
What I find most frustrating it that if we keep talking past each other, not listening. Fear, distrust and sadly disinformation are dividing us, not actual values in most cases. True, some of us do perceive a need earlier than others because of personal experience or research, in such cases, patient education and insightful appeals to better natures is the only course. Of course, even when we agree a problem exists there are more than one solution to any given issue...more civil discourse and patient exchange of ideas...we can't get tired of this time tested method of improving the human condition.
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Jehovah`s witnesses not the only religion GOD is using now ?
by smiddy3 inwhen confronted with angus stewart’s blunt question “do you see yourselves as jehovah god’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from jackson’s lips was astounding.. “that i think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that god is using.
the scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with god’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if i could just clarify a little, going back to matthew 24, clearly, jesus said that in the last days ‐ and jehovah’s witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food.
so inthat respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”.
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peacefulpete
He shows awareness of how culty it would sound to say in public what they say all the time to their members. Theocratic strategy at work.
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Dearest Tec... re the Rich Man and Lazarus..
by AGuest inthe greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!.
thank you for your kind patience.
his request to have lazarus dip the "tip" of his finger in "water" and "cool" his "tongue," tells us: there is no water in the world of the dead.
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peacefulpete
OK, but if I ever commit a crime, I want you on the jury. lol