Posts by Londo111

36

Crossing the Elders

by Cold Steel in

few things draw my interest as much as people on this board who talk about the elders, the insidious little toadies who lurk around kingdom halls, the proverbial big fish in little ponds.

it amazes me the terror and the veneration they inspire, as well as the occasional ridicule.

it makes me wonder how they're selected and whether most of them come into the position with a sense of power, entitlement, authority and control, or whether many of them are pretty nice people and that i'm just hearing about the bad apples?

Londo111

I wasn’t an elder, but my father and both grandfathers were.

This is how the arrangement works. Every congregation has an approved list of who has the “privilege” of giving public talks, and this list is regulated by the body of elders. The public speaker can either be an elder or a ministerial servant.

Each congregation has a “talk coordinator”. Talk coordinators will coordinate with other talk coordinators in order to find speakers to give the public talk on Sunday. Typically, they come from the general area: the circuit or a nearby circuit. So it would not be possible for a stranger to show up on Sunday and give a talk.

Even the content of the public talk does not originate with the one giving it. The content comes from Headquarters in New York. Basically, Watchtower gives dozens of outlines, and a speaker must select or be given one of those. While there is some room for variation, basically the speaker must deliver the points of the outline, albeit in their own words. Even circuit overseers are given outlines…although they have more freedom for variation.

The same holds true for circuit assemblies and district (or now regional) conventions. In fact, at a convention the speaker is given a manuscript and they must deliver it word for word.

There would never be any “fireside”. At least, not at the Kingdom Hall. There would only be the scheduled meetings Watchtower has directed. Extra meetings are a no no. There is a rare exception, but the visitor would have to be a missionary or someone from Bethel…it would not be a stranger. Perhaps use of the kingdom hall to watch some of the Society’s videos would be okay too.

Some sort of meeting outside the Kingdom Hall would be highly unlikely. I believe if a stranger showed up claiming expertise in something, inviting JWs to hear him speak, they would be very very suspicious, as well wary that this is an apostate. Independent meetings and study groups are a no no—even if pro JW all the way.

As the September 2007 Kingdom Ministry says:

“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? No, it does not …“the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight."

Therefore, because of such a control structure from Watchtower headquarters, such a scenario you mentioned would be highly unlikely.

36

Crossing the Elders

by Cold Steel in

few things draw my interest as much as people on this board who talk about the elders, the insidious little toadies who lurk around kingdom halls, the proverbial big fish in little ponds.

it amazes me the terror and the veneration they inspire, as well as the occasional ridicule.

it makes me wonder how they're selected and whether most of them come into the position with a sense of power, entitlement, authority and control, or whether many of them are pretty nice people and that i'm just hearing about the bad apples?

Londo111

Watchtower has not discussed every verse in the Bible, but that really doesn’t matter in the end. They’ve a creed that must be adhered to, even though they would deny they have a creed. Of course, Watchtower denies interpreting the Bible at all. That is what “Christendom” does.

But what happens if you don’t believe an interpretation? That could well be apostasy. And if you speak it aloud? That could easily land a person in a judicial committee. Thus a person would not be “waylaid” by one elder, but pulled into the backroom with three elders. The results could be your family, friends, acquaintances, you entire community and social network shunning you, not saying so much as hello if they see you on the street.

“Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

Even if it is not theological in nature, say a person pointed out cases where the Governing Body change their teachings from their own publications, or show where they became a NGO of the UN. That would be called “causing divisions”. Same result.

I suppose if you said that the “new light” was what you’d already figured beforehand, you would be okay. As long as it doesn’t contradict “present truth”. However, if you mentioned the “new light” BEFORE the Governing Body revealed it, then you would be accused of “running ahead”. And if a person got disfellowshipped, then the Governing Body changed the teaching then, you would not get an apology, and likely a person would still have to work going through the hoops of reinstatement.

Can they have it both ways?

Yes, about this and many things. They are a cult. They have absolute authority. They can have their cake and eat it too.

23

How Many Here Used To Sneak Looking At "apostate" Material?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i did!

even when i was in junior high school i would go to the library and look for anything that was about charles taze russell or millenial dawn or jehovah's witnesses..... maybe i was an "apostate " in the making..

Londo111

When the internet happened, I accidently stumbled onto things and would quickly run away.

But I do remember as a kid in the library picking up a book...I don't remember what it was called. It opened with two siblings going door-to-door. One kid messed up and the sibling said something mean to them. I didn't' read further than that.

36

Crossing the Elders

by Cold Steel in

few things draw my interest as much as people on this board who talk about the elders, the insidious little toadies who lurk around kingdom halls, the proverbial big fish in little ponds.

it amazes me the terror and the veneration they inspire, as well as the occasional ridicule.

it makes me wonder how they're selected and whether most of them come into the position with a sense of power, entitlement, authority and control, or whether many of them are pretty nice people and that i'm just hearing about the bad apples?

Londo111

It is! Now the "anointed" along with the "other sheep" are considered "the domestics".

JWs do not have have personal religious beliefs. They have to believe what the Governing Body (aka Faithful Slave) tells them to believe. They have to behave as the Slave tells them to behave. Or else.

JWs have to be ready to embrace "new light" at any time, even if it is a major leap from the old light.

"At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not."

36

Crossing the Elders

by Cold Steel in

few things draw my interest as much as people on this board who talk about the elders, the insidious little toadies who lurk around kingdom halls, the proverbial big fish in little ponds.

it amazes me the terror and the veneration they inspire, as well as the occasional ridicule.

it makes me wonder how they're selected and whether most of them come into the position with a sense of power, entitlement, authority and control, or whether many of them are pretty nice people and that i'm just hearing about the bad apples?

Londo111

I should add…

Although lip service is given that elders are not “above” their fellow brothers and sisters, and they are not supposed to be position minded, ect, ect—human nature is human nature.

Being an elder can become a source of religious pride. Any who might be inclined to disagree should examine why then being removed or stepping down is viewed a source of great shame.

It’s not easy to become an elder. It takes years of work to be appointed…and it takes allot of work to maintain that position. They must be viewed as exemplary under the Watchtower mindset. Therefore, they are on a pedestal of sorts, despite any denial to the contrary.

Sometimes being an elder involves visiting neighboring congregations and giving talks and then being taken out to eat by the congregation's hospitality.

They are complimented for their talks, ect…And if they work very hard, are liked by the CO, they might be given a part on the circuit assembly.

Human nature being what it is, this pedestal is addicting. Compliments are addicting. Recognition and approval is addicting. So yes, this can go to some people’s heads.

JWs are taught not to strive for any “worldly” achievements. But in the congregation, they are given the illusion of achievement that they are denied in the outside world. This theocratic version of achievement can go to some people’s heads as well.

There is also a segment of humanity that gravitate toward having strict rules for everything and complying with the letter of the law no matter how unreasonable. Some of these become elders.

Therefore, some elders do display a Barney Fife mentality. Believing themselves humble, they’ve a great amount of pride in their position which they are addicted to, and they enforce the tiniest rule, or hint of a rule.

The first rule is: Obey all rules!

36

Crossing the Elders

by Cold Steel in

few things draw my interest as much as people on this board who talk about the elders, the insidious little toadies who lurk around kingdom halls, the proverbial big fish in little ponds.

it amazes me the terror and the veneration they inspire, as well as the occasional ridicule.

it makes me wonder how they're selected and whether most of them come into the position with a sense of power, entitlement, authority and control, or whether many of them are pretty nice people and that i'm just hearing about the bad apples?

Londo111

The vast majority of elders are likely in their authentic self sincere people with good intentions. And as such, they may be nice people. Of course, everyone, even people who’ve done some less than nice things, has a nice side when the circumstances are favorable for it.

But here’s the thing: the individual that is in the role of elder is governed by the rules of the Watchtower Society and its Hierarchy, rather than their own individual conscience. Sure, their own personality can provide some variation, but it is sort of like a dog on a short lease. They only have so much leeway.

Elders are given a confidential rulebook, “Shepard the Flock of God”, which give the rules they must implement. They also have letters from the Branch, giving them further rules. They are given training at Kingdom Ministry school. The circuit overseer rolls through at least twice a year and reviews how compliant the elders are. Other elders are always watching and could report the person to the CO or the Branch. Any who are out of bounds are removed.

There is no room disagreement with Watchtower “guidelines”. That would be disagreeing with the “Faithful Slave”. It is viewed better to comply with the Slave even if their decision about something is mistaken, then to disobey the channel God has appointed. There is little room in obeying the Watchtower’s rules for personal feelings, of saying “I don’t like the way that was handled” or “that’s not very nice”. They have to do things “by the book”. They have to suppress their individual conscience.

When it’s time to vote, on a judicial committee, or if about another matter, if the elder is in the minority, it is sometimes encouraged for them to change their vote to go along with the majority.

Elders are expected to keep an eye on “the flock”, head off trouble if they see someone who may be “going astray”--and that is, those who aren’t complying with the written and unwritten rules of the Watchtower. Growing a beard, going to a school dance, considering higher education, dating without a chaperone, not reporting enough hours, ect…

Elders are not given real or extensive training like clergy in other denominations. Many are painters, window washers, construction workers…but they often encounter intense problems that require professional help. They cannot provide real help to people. And many times, this “help” comes in the form of a judicial committee with ultimately expels people in the time they need help the most. In reality, their main function is as an organizational policemen, rather than “shepherds” providing pastoral care.

Therefore: even the nicest, sincerest, humble elder can end up doing some pretty not nice things, things they otherwise would not do of their own accord. It is not them, it is the Watchtower, ultimately, the Governing Body who is the casual agent for their behavior.

Some elders who struggle with their conscience, end up stepping down. And some of those wake up, and are here and on other exJW forums.

Throughout history, many otherwise nice people have even committed outright atrocities because they believe they were serving the greater good.

80

Are there any ex-missionaries here??

by fulano in

i have been a missionary in the dominican republic for almost 10 years and i was wondering if there were any ex-missionaries on this forum.. i am back in my country now for 3 years and totally inactive.. what i noticed in those missionary-years was the lack of spiritual interest among the missionaries.. discussions were about rooms, cars and greater responsibilities, the bad territory.

and the local c.o.s and d.os.. was this only in the dr or are there other experiences??.

ere other experiences?