Posts by Londo111

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

Yes, even with fading friends (and family) will keep their distance until virtually one might as well be DFed.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

Richard:

Again, I believe if you read a few unbiased books on the subject, like Combating Cult Mind Control, you will be in a better position to discuss this matter.

Someone posted this link that quotes JW publications, but I believe I will post it again for your benefit. When you are a JW can you question the leadership?

Read this:

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

I agree. I would never use the c-word with a JW...unless they are awakening and ready to hear it.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

(You had me at No! Case closed! BTW...what cult would agree that they are a cult? They all say:“Trust us, we are not a cult!” They might even be sincere in saying it, but it doesn’t neccararilly change the truth of the matter.

Rather, we are Christians who do our best to follow the example set by Jesus Christ and to live by his teachings. (As are many Christian groups, including some who have left the JW organization)

What is a cult? (Let’s define the word for you and then prove that we do not meet the definition we provided)

The term “cult” means different things to different people. (True…which is why the best people to consult would be those who study cults, like Hassan, Lipton, Festinger and other trained professionals, rather than say...Joe Sixpack)

However, consider two common perceptions regarding cults and why those perceptions don’t apply to us. (again, selecting two perceptions rather than focusing on what trained professionals mean when they say cult)

Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion. (Yet as Steven Hassan has pointed out, a cult is not a group with unusual beliefs, but the level of control and undue influence)

Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, we pattern our worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) We believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship. (This is the claim of many religious organizations. Of course, it is not the Bible that is the authority, but the interpretation of the Bible as provided by the Governing Body…plus whatever other edicts they hand down that have no justification at all from Scripture)

Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.

This definition strikes closer to the truth and JWs meet it 100%. While lip service is giving that Christ is leader and nobody else, in practice the organization has a very pronounced hierarchy of religious leaders: elders, circuit overseers, branch overseers, that all answer to the Governing Body. JWs ultimately follow the Governing Body and if they do not (or simply it becomes known they do not believe they are God’s sole channel) they are shunned by their friends and family.

Whenever a JW mentions the Governing Body or a member of the Governing Body, you can often hear the reverence in their voice. If someone gives honest criticism toward them, a JW will react very harshly. While the Governing Body has been a composite leader since 1975, before that the Org was ruled by its charismatic Presidents: Russell, Rutherford, Knorr/Franz. One man as leader vs a small group of men: that does not make a difference.

Far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits its members and others in the community.

(Tens of thousands dead due to the blood transfusion ban and other bans over the decades on fractions and organ transplants, suicides due to shunning, families and friendships broken, the pressure to avoid higher education and make other life choices…it is a dangerous group. Perhaps one of the most dangerous cults in modern times).

For example, our ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol.

Other groups (even cults) can claim the same. The People’s Temple helped people in this regard! Look at what happened to them in Jonestown.

In addition, we conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write.

Yes, but the catch is that there is an agenda to converting people. Other groups help people without any agenda, just purely to help people…I know, I was involved in the Micah Initiative for a couple years.

And we are actively involved in disaster relief. We work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do.—Matthew 5:13-16.

Many groups are involved in disaster relief too, but don’t try to milk the PR from it. Often, take Hurricane Andrew or Katrina for example, mostly JWs are helped and then “encouraged” to send their insurance check to Watchtower.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

“Bad associations spoil useful habits.”

"He that is walking with wise persons will become wise, he that is having dealings with the stupid person will fair badly."

Here even Scripture shows that our association influences us for good or ill. The pressure to conform to JW teachings does not solely come from within due to misinterpretation. The message has often been clear at every meeting and assembly: "Can you do more?" What you are doing is never enough, it's never quality enough. You might be doing this, but are you doing that? If a person does not see this pressure is coming from the top-down, they are not listening at the meetings.

In the Watchtower org, a person's social standing is often dependent on how well they perform and how much they conform.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

In terms of people being benefited by joining the Watchtower…people also benefited by joining the People’s Temple. Some were former drug dealers or users and joining helped them break their addictions and bad behavior. The group mobilized and did good works on behalf of the community. People were impressed. However, knowing what we know now, what was there end?

36

Child Discipline, new article to address Jackson's Royal Commission testimony

by jwfacts in

i have published a new article at watchtower corporal punishment, as a response to the testimony that geoff jackson gave at the royal commission.

it includes the relevant part of the transcript, along with a string of watchtower quotes to show that what he presented was not accurate, and that watchtower translates rod as a literal implement to hit children with.

.

Londo111

This brings back memories of being spanked...by hand, belt, switch, paddle, foot, shoe, metal rod. And of the many children I saw and heard get "disciplined" over the years because they found it hard to sit through a meeting that even adults found excruciatingly boring.

As a JW, I remember physical discipline was a given in regard how children should be punished. Parents were encouraged to be a little more discreet when spanking their children at the Kingdom Hall...too many were doing it outside, in view of passing cars and feedback from outsiders was coming back to that regard.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Londo111

In the beginning of waking up, I denied it was a cult or that JWs were under mind control. That is because I did not understand what a cult or mind control was. This is in part that I relied on the Watchtower definition of why they were not a cult, and because movies and TV rarely portray this phenomena in a realistic manner. Educating myself on the subject opened my eyes further.

The best definition of a cult is a high control group—this group might be religious, commercial, or political. Mind control is undue influence. There are four barometers of control: Behavioral, Information, Thought, and Emotion. In a mainstream religion or in a non-religious group, these four barometers register on the low end of the scale, whereas in the Watchtower religion, all four of these barometers are on the high end.

Until a person educates themselves on cults and undue influence, they cannot really offer effective arguments on why a said group is or is not a cult. I recommend Steven Hassan, Robert Lifton, or Leon Festinger.

18

Shunning legal since 1987

by TheWonderofYou in

legality[edit].

in june 1987, the united states court of appeals for the 9th circuit upheld the witnesses' right to shun those who fail to live by the group's standards and doctrines, upholding the ruling of a lower court, finding that "shunning is a practice engaged in by jehovah's witnesses pursuant to their interpretation of canonical text, and we are not free to reinterpret that text ... the defendants are entitled to the free exercise of their religious beliefs ... the members of the church [she] decided to abandon have concluded that they no longer want to associate with her.

we hold that they are free to make that choice."[99][100].

Londo111

Yes, I was 15 when I was "baptized" in the name of the Org. Back then, I had no internet and no means of refuting what I was taught. And I likely could not have explained key teachings like 1914 or 1919. It is definitely not an informed decision.

Even before that, I became an "unbaptized publisher" at 8. I don't even remember making that "decision". It just sort of happened.

18

Shunning legal since 1987

by TheWonderofYou in

legality[edit].

in june 1987, the united states court of appeals for the 9th circuit upheld the witnesses' right to shun those who fail to live by the group's standards and doctrines, upholding the ruling of a lower court, finding that "shunning is a practice engaged in by jehovah's witnesses pursuant to their interpretation of canonical text, and we are not free to reinterpret that text ... the defendants are entitled to the free exercise of their religious beliefs ... the members of the church [she] decided to abandon have concluded that they no longer want to associate with her.

we hold that they are free to make that choice."[99][100].

Londo111

It was a dark day in Supreme Court history, that's for sure. Maybe one day this will be overturned.