Doug,sorry about the Hebrew and Greek fonts. They don't transfer that well. According to the tenses: Yahweh said (past) of which shall be heard (future) this place of which you are saying (participle)....
Posts by Vidqun
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16Seeking information re Jer 33:11
by Doug Mason ini am seeking information regarding the rendering of jer 33:11.. the nwt renders the opening of that verse: "in this place that you people will be saying is waste ... ".
whereas the niv renders: "you say about this place, 'it is a desolate place ... '".. which rendering is correct?.
do the mt, lxx and other sources agree?.
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16
Seeking information re Jer 33:11
by Doug Mason ini am seeking information regarding the rendering of jer 33:11.. the nwt renders the opening of that verse: "in this place that you people will be saying is waste ... ".
whereas the niv renders: "you say about this place, 'it is a desolate place ... '".. which rendering is correct?.
do the mt, lxx and other sources agree?.
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Vidqun
10
????
?????
????
????
?????????
?????????????????
thus
(he) says
Yahweh
again
(he|it) shall be heard
in · the · place · the · this
??????
??????
????????
?????
????
??????
?????
[of] which
you
[are] saying 2
[is] a waste
he|it
without 34 · does not exist
people
????????
????????
????????
????????
and · without 56 · does not exist
animal[s]
in · the towns of
Judah
??????????
????????????
????????????
??????
and · in · the streets of
Jerusalem
(the) · that are desolate 7
without 89 · does not exist
?????
????????
???????
people
and · without 12 · does not exist
inhabitant[s] 3
????????
?????????
and · without 45 · does not exist
animal[s]
10
ο?τως
ε?πεν
κ?ριος
?τι
?κουσθ?σεται
?ν
τ?
τ?π?
thus, so
to say, speak
lord
yet, still
to hear
in
the
place
Thus
said
the LORD:
yet 2
There shall be heard 1
in
—
place 2
το?τ?
,
?
?με?ς
λ?γετε
?ρημ?ς
?στιν
this
who, which, that
you
to say
wilderness, desert
to be, exist, happen
this 1
of which
you
say,
a wilderness 2
"It is 1
?π?
?νθρ?πων
κα?
κτην?ν
,
?ν
π?λεσιν
Ιουδα
κα?
from, by reason of
man, mankind
and
cattle, herd
in
city
Judah
and
(apart) from
humankind
and
cattle
in
(the) cities
of Judah
and
?ξωθεν
Ιερουσαλημ
τα?ς
?ρημωμ?ναις
παρ?
τ?
μ?
from without
Jerusalem
the
to desolate, desert
beside
the
no, not
outside
Jerusalem
that
are deserted,
with the result that
—
no 2
ε?ναι
?νθρωπον
κα?
κτ?νη
to be, exist, happen
man, mankind
and
cattle, herd
there are 1
humankind
and
cattle,
BibleWorks Version:
NWT Jeremiah 33:10 This is what Jehovah has said, In this place that YOU people will be saying is waste without man and without domestic animal, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolated without man and without inhabitant and without domestic animal, there will yet be heard
WTT Jeremiah 33:10 ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????????? ?????????????????? ??????? ??????? ?????????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????? ?????????????? ??????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ??????????
LXT Jeremiah 40:10 ο?τως ε?πεν κ?ριος ?τι ?κουσθ?σεται ?ν τ? τ?π? το?τ? ? ?με?ς λ?γετε ?ρημ?ς ?στιν ?π? ?νθρ?πων κα? κτην?ν ?ν π?λεσιν Ιουδα κα? ?ξωθεν Ιερουσαλημ τα?ς ?ρημωμ?ναις παρ? τ? μ? ε?ναι ?νθρωπον κα? κτ?νη
LXE Jeremiah 33:10 Thus saith the Lord; There shall yet be heard in this place, of which ye say, it is destitute of men and cattle, in the cities of Juda, and <1> in the streets of Jerusalem, the places that have been made desolate for want of men and cattle,
VUL Jeremiah 33:10 haec dicit Dominus adhuc audietur in loco isto quem vos dicitis esse desertum eo quod non sit homo et iumentum in civitatibus Iuda et foris Hierusalem quae desolatae sunt absque homine et absque habitatore et absque pecore
DRA Jeremiah 33:10 Thus saith the Lord: There shall be heard again in this place (which you say is desolate, because there is neither man nor beast: in the cities of Juda, and without Jerusalem, which are desolate without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast)
[1] van der Merwe, C. (2004; 2004). The Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible; Bible. O.T. Hebrew. (Je 33:10). Logos Research Systems, Inc.
[2] Tan, R., deSilva, D. A., & Logos Bible Software. (2009). The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint (Je 40:10). Logos Bible Software.
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18
YHWH and the English Translation
by allyouneedislove inso i was doing research on yhwh in the hebrew scriptures.
i see that the wt admits that yahweh is a more accurate hebrew pronunciation of yhwh.. but, is jehovah an acceptable way to translate yahweh into english?
if not, what is the best way to translate yhwh into english?.
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Vidqun
For those interested in the subject. The following article has been extracted from BibleWorks Theological Wordbook of the OT, by Liard Harris. Another excellent resource is Theological Dictionary of the OT. Editors: G. J. Botterweck and H. Ringgren. A technical resource, from a different perspective is S. Ortlepp, Pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton: A Historico-Linguistic Approach. Sorry about the fonts. They don't transfer that well.
Yahweh. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the LORD, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and his most frequent designation in Scripture, occurring 5321 times (TDNT, III, p. 1067) in the OT (KJV and ASV, the Lord, or, in those contexts where the actual title "Lord" also occurs, GOD, except KJV, Jehovah, in seven passages where the name is particularly stressed (Exo 6:3; Psa 83:18 [H 19]; Isa 12:2; Isa 26:4] or combined with other elements, such as Jehovah Jireh (Gen 22:14; cc Exo 17:15; Jud 6:24; ASV, consistently Jehovah)).
y¹h. A contracted form of Yahweh. Occurs fifty times (rendered in English as above, except KJV, Jah, in Psa 68:4 [H 5], where the name is particularly stressed).
Also numerous proper nouns compounded with shortened forms of the divine name "Yahweh," e.g.: y®hôn¹t¹n, Jehonathan, "Yahweh has given"; abbreviated yôn¹t¹n "Jonathan," a substitute name for the same person (compare 1Sam 13:2-3 with 1Sam 14:6, 8; 2Sam 17:17, 20 with 1Kings 1:42-43); and y®hôsh¹p¹t, Jehoshaphat, "Yahweh has judged"; alternatively yôsh¹p¹t, "Joshaphat," applied only to two subordinates of David (1Chr 11:43; 1Chr 15:24).
The theological importance of h¹wâ II stems from its derived nouns, which identify the personal name of deity, Yahweh, or its contractions.
The tetragrammaton YHWH is not ordinarily written with its appropriate Hebrew vowels. But that the original pronunciation was YaHWeH seems probable, both from the corresponding verbal form, the imperfect of h¹wâ, anciently yahweh, and from later representation of YHWH in Greek iaoue or iabe. An apocopated form of h¹wâ in the imperfect, that occurs in Eccl 11:3, is y®hû° (otiose aleph, GKC, p. 211). This in turn may account for the shorter name YHW in the fifth century B.C. Elephantine papyri and the initial elements, y®hô-, yô-, and y¢- (KB, p. 369) in such names as Jehozadak, "Yahweh (is) righteous," or Joel, "Yahweh (is) God.".
[An alternative possibility for the original pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton should be mentioned. Actually, there is a problem with the pronunciation "Yahweh." It is a strange combination of old and late elements. The first extra-Biblical occurrence of the name is in the Moabite Stone of about 850 B.C. At that time vowel letters were just beginning to be used in Hebrew. If YHWH represents a spelling earlier than 900 B.C. (as would seem likely), the final " h " should have been pronounced. The pronunciation Yahweh assumes the ending of a lamed-he verb, but these verbs in Moses' day ended in a " y " (cf. for b¹nâ the Ug. impf. ybny). So the ending " eh " is a late form. But in Hebrew in late times a " w " that began a word or syllable changed to " y " (as in the pe-waw verbs and the verb h¹yâ itself). So the " w " of Yahweh represents a pre-mosaic pronunciation but the final " eh " represents probably a post-davidic form.
In view of these problems it may be best simply to say that YHWH does not come from the verb h¹wâ (presumably hawaya in its early form) at all. There are many places in the OT where it is now recognized that the parallel of a name and its meaning is not necessarily etymological. For instance, 1Sam 1:20 probably does not mean that the name Samuel is derived from the verb sh¹ma± "to hear." Genesis 11:9 does not mean that Babel comes from the verb b¹lal "confusion" but only that the two words sound somewhat alike. Likewise Jacob is said to mean both "heel" (Gen 25:26) and "supplanter" (Gen 27:36). There are many other examples of this device which is to be taken as a paranomasia, a play on words, rather than as an etymology. Therefore we may well hold that YHWH does not come from the verb h¹wâ which is cited in the first person °ehyeh "I will be," but is an old word of unknown origin which sounded something like what the verb h¹wâ sounded in Moses' day. In this case we do not know what the pronunciation was; we can only speculate. However, if the word were spelled with four letters in Moses' day, we would expect it to have had more than two syllables, for at that period there were no vowel letters. All the letters were sounded.
At the end of the OT period the Elephantine papyri write the word YHW to be read either y¹hû (as in names like Shemayahu) or y¹hô (as in names like Jehozadek). The pronunciation y¹hô would be favored by the later Greek from iaœ found in Qumran Greek fragments (2d or 1st centuries B.C.) and in Gnostic materials of the first Christian centuries. Theodoret in the fourth century A.D. states that the Samaritans pronounced it iabe. Clement of Alexandria (early 3d century A.D.) vocalized it as iaoue. These are quite late witnesses and seem to contradict the much earlier Jewish witness of Elephantine and the name elements, none of which end in " eh.".
As to the meaning of the name, we are safer if we find the character of God from his works and from the descriptions of him in the Scripture rather than to depend on a questionable etymology of his name. See further the writer's remarks in "The Pronunciation of the Tetragram" in The Law and the Prophets, J. H. Skilton, ed., Presbyterian & Reformed, 1974, pp. 215-24. R.L.H.].
Among the commonest names with this element are y®hôn¹t¹n "Jonathan," the name of seventeen different OT characters (ISBE, III, pp. 1580, 1730). These include Moses' treacherous (great) grandson Jonathan (Jud 18:30, ASV), David's faithful friend Jonathan, the son of Saul (1Sam 18:1), and David's young courier Jonathan the son of Abiathar (2Sam 15:27; 1Kings 1:42). y®hôsh¹p¹t "Jehoshaphat," identifies six individuals (ISBE, III, pp. 1581-1582, 1743), including Israel's recorder under David and Solomon (2Sam 8:16; 1Kings 4:3) and Judah's fourth king after the division, 872-848 B.C. The name reappears in Joel's prediction of the Valley of Jehoshaphat (Joe) Joel 3:2, 12 [H4 2,12]), where God will overcome the nations gathered to oppose his advent in glory. But rather than designating the site of King Jehoshaphat's ancient victory (Beracah between Hebron and Bethlehem, 2Chr 20:26), this title seems to identify a spot beside Jerusalem (Joel 3:17 [H 4.17]), traditionally the Kidron, below Olivet (Zech 14:4). It may be less a place name than prophecy's description of the event of y®hôsh¹p¹t ; "Yahweh has judged.".
y®hôshû¦-y¢shû¦± designates ten Hebrew leaders (ISBE, III, pp. 1622, 1743) from Moses' successor Joshua (KJV, Jehoshua in Num 13:16; 1Chr 7:27) to the post-exilic high priest Jeshua (Ezra 3:2; Neh 12:10). The former's name was changed from the Hiphil infinitive, Hoshea, "salvation," to Joshua, with its deeper spiritual connotation of "Yahweh (is) salvation" (Num 13:8, 16). Both men are called "Jesus" in Greek (Acts 7:45; 1Esd 5:48), i.e., yeshûa± is our Lord's Hebrew name, "for he will save his people from their sins" (Mt 1:21). This may be a shortened form with the divine element omitted, meaning "he will save.".
The shortened independent form of the divine name, Yah, occurs primarily in poetry and in the exclamation, Hallelu-yah, praise Yahweh. It serves also as a terminal element in proper nouns like Elijah: " °¢lîyâ (or °¢lîy¹hû), "God (is) Yahweh.".
In the post-biblical period, reverence for the ineffable name "Yahweh" caused it to be supplanted in synagogue reading (but not in writing) with the noun °¦dœn¹y, "my master," or Lord. Next, when medieval Jewish scholars began to insert vowels to accompany the consonantal OT text, they added to YHWH the Masoretic vowel points for °¦dœn¹y ; and the actual writing became an impossible Y¦HœW¹H, the ASV "Jehovah.".
God's name identifies his nature, so that a request for his "name" is equivalent to asking about his character (Exo 3:13; Hos 12:5 [H 6]). Critical speculation about the origin and meaning of "Yahweh" seems endless (cf. L. Kbhler, OT Theology, pp. 4246; IDB, 11, pp. 409-11); but the Bible's own explanation in Exo 3:14 is that it represents the simple (Qal) imperfect of h¹wâ "to be," I am [is] what I am. The precise name Yahweh results when others speak of him in the third person, yahweh "He is." Albright, it is true, has championed a causative rendering, "I cause to be, I create" (From the Stone Age to Christianity, 2d ed., 1946, p. 198; D. N. Freedman, JBL, 79: 151-56); but this is rightly criticized as "conjuring up a nonexistent Hiphil form" (N. Walker, JBL, 79: 277).Some have gone on to suggest that the Qal meaning of Yahweh must be God's unchangeableness toward his people (Exo 3:15; G. Vos, Biblical Theology, p. 134). But, as Moses himself indicated (Exo 3:13), the fact that he was the ancient God of the fathers was insufficient to answer Israel's need at that time; and, in any event, the OT has little to say concerning abstractions such as "the changelessness of deity" (though in the NT Jesus did use Exo 3:14 to introduce the thought of his eternal divine existence, Jn 8:58), God's immediately preceding promise to Moses had been, "Certainly I will be with you" (Exo 3:12). So his assertion in verse 14 would seem to be saying, "I am present is what I am." Indeed, the fundamental promise of his testament is, "I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Exo 6:7; etc.; contrast Hos 1:9); thus "Yahweh," "faithful presence," is God's testamentary nature, or name (Exo 6:2, 4; Deut 7:9; Isa 26:4).
The use of Yahweh as a divine name goes back to earliest times (Gen 4:1, 26; Gen 9:26), although the documentation for its employment among other early cultures appears questionable (IDB, II, p. 409). In Exo 6:3 the Lord explains to Moses that by his name Yahweh he had not been "known" to the patriarchs, meaning "know" (see y¹da±) in its fullest sense: the name was in use (Gen 12:8; Gen 15:2, 7, 8) but was not appreciated in the redemptive significance that it acquired under Moses (J. A. Motyer, The Revelation of the Divine Name). For even the so-called P document, which critics have hypothesized as contradicting the Bible's claims to the earlier use of Yahweh (ibid., pp. 3-6), utilizes it in premosaic proper nouns (Jochebed, Exo 6:20; Num 26:59).
Commencing with the later judges (1Sam 1:3), the name Yahweh is often combined with ƒ®b¹°ôt, "hosts" (armies, q.v.). The Tetragrammaton occurs in every OT book except Eccl and Est. It appears in the ninth century Moabite inscription of Mesha (line 18). From the eighth century onward the element "Yau-" is employed in Aramaic names and in Mesopotamian references to Hebrew rulers, Only in pre-NT times was God's personal name replaced with the less intimate title °¦dœn¹y (Gr.,kurios) "Lord.".
Scripture speaks of the Tetragrammaton as "this glorious and fearful name" (Deut 28:58) or simply "the name" (Lev 24:11). But it connotes God's nearness, his concern for man, and the revelation of his redemptive covenant. In Genesis 1 through Genesis 2:3, the general term °§lœhîm (q.v.) "deity," is appropriate for God transcendent in creation; but in Gen 2:4-25 it is Yahweh, the God who is immanent in Eden's revelations. In Gen 9:26-27, Elohim enlarges Japheth, but Yahweh is the God of Shem; the latter is especially used in references to the God of Israel. In Psa 19 the heavens declare the glory of El (vv. I -6); but the law of Yahweh is perfect, and Yahweh is "my strength and my redeemer" (vv. 7-14 [H 8-15]; cf. G. T. Manley, The Book of the Law, p. 41). Yet the distinction is not pervasive: Psalms 14 and Psalms 53 are practically identical except for the divine names employed; book I of the Psalter (Psa 1-41) simply prefers Yahweh, and book II (42-72), Elohim. Ultimately the connotations of the name Yahweh are fulfilled in the "covenant of peace," when the God who has been present from the first will be fully present at the last (Isa 41:4); cf. Ezekiel's stress upon God's "sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore" (Ezek 37:26) and his eschatological city's being named YHWH_ sh¹mmâ "Yahweh is there."
Bibliography: Abba, R., "The Divine Name Yahweh," JBL 80:320-28. Albright, W. F., Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, pp. 168-72. Freedman, D. N., "The Name of the God of Moses," JBL 79: 151-56. Harris, R. L., "The Pronunciation of the Tetragram," in The Law and the Prophets, ed. J. H. Skilton, Presbyterian and Reformed, 1974, pp. 215-24. Jacob, E., Theology of the OT, Harper, 1958, pp. 48-54. Motyer, A. J., The Revelation of the Divine Name, London: Tyndale, 1959. Payne, J. B., Theology of the Older Testament, Zondervan, 1962, pp. 147-54. TDNT, III, pp. 1058-81. J.B.P.
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Could someone please explain this self contradiction made by Dr. Furuli?
by I_love_Jeff in"furuli's hypothesis is self-contradictory.
if it were true that the planetary positions "represent backward calculations by an astrologer who believed that 568/67 was year 37 of nebuchadnezzar ii," and if it were true that "the original tablet that was copied in seleucid times was made in 588/87," which furuli argues was the 37th year of nebuchadnezzar, then the astrologer/copyist must have dated the tablet to the 37th year of nebuchadnezzar from the very beginning!
no modern manipulation of the date would then have been necessary"..
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Vidqun
For the record, I don't know much about chronolgy. But, like a good detective, I would wonder about "motive." What would be the motive of a person in 1906 (or later) to want to tamper with the evidence? All the tablets and cylinders point to 587/586 BCE as the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, thus according to secular chronology. Even the WTS admits that. However, if someone were to tamper with a tablet to point to another date, e.g., 607 BCE, then I would become suspicious. It would be out of sync, the only tablet to do so.
I understand the argument of the seventy year desolation. Quite a few scriptures indicate 70 years. Counting back from 538 BCE, specifically 539 BCE (the release of the Jews by Cyrus), would bring one to 606/607 BCE. Only problem with that view is that it is supported by Bible writers only, and perhaps Josephus. All secular evidence points to 587/586. Perhaps Furuli should stick to this argument, rather than taking on secular scholars or their sources.
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Was it ever written "with" a thief but changed to "as" a thief?
by N.drew inrevelation 3:3. so remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent.
therefore if you do not wake up, i will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour i will come to you.. revelation 16:15.
("behold, i am coming like a thief.
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Vidqun
That's why it is absolutely criminal to suggest a date (day or year) for the end to come. It goes completely against the grain of what Jesus taught. No one knows the date, not the angels, not the Son, only the Father (Matt. 24:36). Furthermore, the analogy of the thief confirms this (Matt. 24:43, 44).
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Was it ever written "with" a thief but changed to "as" a thief?
by N.drew inrevelation 3:3. so remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent.
therefore if you do not wake up, i will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour i will come to you.. revelation 16:15.
("behold, i am coming like a thief.
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Vidqun
N.Drew, in each case the comparative particle hous is used with klepteis (thief), meaning “as” or “like.” BW classifies it a subordinating conjunction.
1 . a comparative particle, marking the manner in which someth. proceeds, as, like (BDAG)
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121
Where is Outlaw?
by Iamallcool inhe is one of my favorite posters, i look him up from time to time.
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Vidqun
Outlaw is taking a holiday from JWN. During his sabbatical he is posting on a JWonly website under the pseudonym of Sheriff in order to keep the peace.
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What happened to Rolf Furuli?
by Vidqun inrolf seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth.
he is not active on b-hebrew or other message boards anymore.
i wrote to him with a query, and has not heard a thing.
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Vidqun
Phizzy: I respect Rolf and his views" may I ask why ?
I corresponded with him for a short while and he seemed sincere in his beliefs (if somewhat deluded by sticking to the WT version of events). A true scholar/scientist would have looked at the situation objectively, and reject that which contradicts. As we know there's a lot of contradictions in Watchtower theology. He did admit though, that there were some serious shortcomings with the WT view of Hebrew aspect/tense. Another thing that put me off was that he insisted that I buy his books, and at that stage I could not afford them. I never got into chronological discussions with him because I view them as being of secondary importance. Overall, he held some liberal views, e.g., encouraging secular education.
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G-spot discovered
by Vidqun ina doctor claims he has dissected the g-spot, proving that it exists.
this is an area of female anatomy that has always fascinated me.
being a student of anatomy (really), i made a study of it.. first of all, i'll relate an interesting anecdote in connection with a medical article, dealing with the subject.
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Vidqun
This is an article by an American gynecologist. He seems to have a vested interest in the subject. Seems as though the Italians are also quite knowledgeable in that area. Surprisingly, according to most sexologists, the jury seems to be out on the G-spot.
The study in question, called G-Spot Anatomy: A New Discovery, appears in The Journal of Sexual Medicine and was conducted by Adam Ostrzenski, director of the Institute of Gynecology in St Petersburg. It claims to shed some real light on the existence of the G-spot, through dissection of a cadaver's vaginal wall. From New Scientist :
"He found a clearly defined sac in a layer between the vagina and the urethra close to the perineal membrane. The sac was around 16 millimetres from the upper part of the urethral opening. At less than a centimetre long, it was positioned at a 35-degree angle to the urethra... Inside the sac Ostrzenski found a "worm-like" structure with three distinct regions that broadly "resemble erectile tissue – normally found in areas such as the clitoral body"."
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G-spot discovered
by Vidqun ina doctor claims he has dissected the g-spot, proving that it exists.
this is an area of female anatomy that has always fascinated me.
being a student of anatomy (really), i made a study of it.. first of all, i'll relate an interesting anecdote in connection with a medical article, dealing with the subject.
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Vidqun
What proved the connection between a primordial prostate and the G-spot for me, is female ejaculation in some women, which has been documented and demonstrated. The fluid of the ejaculate is similar to prostatic fluid.