Posts by braincleaned

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

This is an interesting conversation. We both respect each other and try to understand. I appreciate the exchange.

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

Understood... but the core question is, is this Faith based on a real person? And if so, why doesn't he make himself real to all?
Logically — if like you say — Christ is the evidence on which Faith is based upon, nobody he has not revealed himself to should be expected to exercise that Faith.

I for one think that the man Jesus was just a wise man, not a god.
It is more than reasonable that I cannot have faith in him unless he reveals himself to me.

I know what you are going to say; he DOES reveal himself but I don't acknowledge him.
Of course, that would be a tad insulting to assume I would be so stupid to put my family and myself in jeopardy for purposely ignoring him.
I used to believe he was a savior... but my honest quest concluded otherwise.

I repeat, my honest quest concluded otherwise.
Why would my sincerity be punished?

Where am I not being logical and reasonable?

223

Comprehensive NWT Comparison Project (calling all technically skilled members)

by Apognophos in

is anyone aware if this project is already being done by someone?

if not, perhaps we can brainstorm how to go about this, now that the pdf for the revised nwt is out.

a couple initial impressions:.

braincleaned

THANK YOU!!! What a wonderful gift you offer here! Fantastic!

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

Yes, I agree adamah.
Well said. I could have used a better translation.

The point is this; Faith is not a virtue, by far.
No matter how one works to prove one has it.

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

Again, analyzing Heb. 11:1 " Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen."

There are two apparently strong words here to define "Faith":
1) — assurance
2) — conviction
* (other versions use similar wording)

However, these strong words shrink by the following words; hope, and evidence not seen.

I could say I KNOW (strong word) that fairies are real (unprovable statement that makes the word "know" moot).

In the following context, Paul gives examples of the latter kind, the works of men totally convinced of the existence of God, and that he was to be obeyed.
Hope is also consistent with what these men expected in return (the approbation of God).

BEAR IN MIND that this is an exercise in logic!

I do not believe in these stories at all.
— I write stories for a living, and even in fiction there needs to be an amount of logic within the scenario.
The Bible needs some serious editing for clarity and consistancy.

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

Every employer would love to know God's trick: how to make people work for you while promising a paycheck that never comes, with no health coverage, and STILL have the employees kiss your feet! :D

Walmart would KILL to get that info...

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

// The NT easily proves and disproves, for example, the Trinity doctrine since it represents both beliefs simultaneiously (due to the disparate sourcing.)//

SO on spot, Terry!

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

I see where you are coming from Tec — I was there for decades. Now, you make faith related to trust and obediance. Although partly true — Adamah well argued why this is missing the point.
(example; Noah did not build the ark so much on hope than obediance to the "assurance about what [he did] not see"... the second part of Heb.11:1)
Again, this is what I'm saying:

Religious Faith vs Empirical Knowledge

• religious |riˈlijəs|
adjective — (of a belief or practice) forming part of someone's thought about or worship of a divine being; treated or regarded with a devotion and scrupulousness appropriate to worship

• faith |fāTH|
noun — complete trust or confidence in someone or something. According to Heb. 11:1 ~ "Faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

• empirical |emˈpirikəl|
adjective — based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic

• knowledge |ˈnälij|
noun — what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information.
Facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

Both Religious Faith and Empirical Knowledge need specific sources to prompt a belief.
We either freely choose or follow our environment/upbringing in the SOURCES of our convictions.
TRUST is the first element that will generate religious faith or empirical knowledge.

A) — Religious Faith is born from:
1) — TRUST in a chosen source
2) — HOPE that all that is promised will happen
3) — BELIEF with no need for any visible or tangible evidence.

B) — Empirical Knowledge is born from:
1) — TRUST in a chosen source
2) — QUESTIONING that all it predicts or presents is valid
3) — BELIEF if the evidence and logic produces verifiable facts.

BELIEF in itself is NOT a choice. Again, only the our SOURCES we trust are a choice.

Theoretically, any conviction should present a good argument that make epistemic sense; meaning it should be falsifiable to prevent unattackable, isolated, and intrinsic circular arguments.

This is why Faith is not debatable. It lives outside reason, as it does not demand explanation, justification nor empirical proof. Faith is primarily based in emotion, rather than reason, although there is a close connection between the two.
One must not confuse the words Trust and Faith to disingenuously level the playing field.

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

Tec, I am one of those that really did deep in my Bible reading. I never take a scripture our of context. Ever... just sayin'
It's my deep study of the scriptures that made me the atheist I am today. And it cost me dearly to accept reality.
I paid my dues... trust me. I bare the scars.

My glasses are not rosy anymore — I was hit by the grace of Reason.

141

Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned in

whatever our convictions are, we all have one thing in common; we have learned them from other sources.. we have knowledge by proxy... we didn't find things out all by ourselves.

we let trusted sources talk for us.. belief is not something that you choose.

but if there is no elephant, i do not "choose" to believe it isn't there either.

braincleaned

Again, we differ. All of us, like me, are prone to confirmation bias. I do fight it, and have successfully done so in the past. But I'm always on the lookout that I don't follow my new bias.

We are the only ones to know if we are honest about it or not. Nobody can judge another of not being sincere.

It does baffle me that I lived most of my life based on non-evidence other than a big religious and emotional gut feeling, refusing any evidence against it.