Comment someone gave on Today's Watchtower re: great tribulation

by cappytan in

"we may get instructions that don't make sense or they may defy logic, but we must be obedient to the faithful slave if we want to survive.".

all i could think about was that these were the same kind of people that would have gulped down the kool aid at jonestown without hesitation.. pardon the language, but what the actual f**k?

even when i wasn't a doubter and bought in to the organization, it was always with a view to what was in line with scripture.

Isaiah 1:18 (King James)

"18 Come now, and let us reason together..."

I remember an elder who would often quote this scripture to show people the true religion must always make sense, be reasonable.

How the thinking of JWs has changed!

19

Comment someone gave on Today's Watchtower re: great tribulation

by cappytan in

"we may get instructions that don't make sense or they may defy logic, but we must be obedient to the faithful slave if we want to survive.".

all i could think about was that these were the same kind of people that would have gulped down the kool aid at jonestown without hesitation.. pardon the language, but what the actual f**k?

even when i wasn't a doubter and bought in to the organization, it was always with a view to what was in line with scripture.

ScenicViewer

"We may get instructions that don't make sense or they may defy logic, but we must be obedient to the faithful slave if we want to survive."

That sums up what being a modern-day Jehovah's Witness is all about.

Following God, Jesus Christ, the truth, the Bible, or one's conscience means nothing. The only thing that counts is following an Organization.

What is the only one of the above concepts not fount in the Bible? Following an Organization.

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

ScenicViewer

Is this a contradiction? Watchtower seems to always declare how loyal Witneses are/were when being persecuted. Compare the Watchtower magazine quote to information from the Gestapo files.

"Hitler failed to break them in prisons and concentration camps where he tortured 10,000 of them and the Communists are failing to do it in their frightful prisons and slave-labor camps." (The Watchtower, June 1, 1960, p. 327)

Vs

Historical Dictionary of Jehovah's Witnesses, page 73, by George D. Chryssides states: "Of the 25,000 Witnesses and Earnest Bible Students in Germany, 13,400 spent at least some time serving prison sentences. According to Gestapo files, more than half recanted."

If more than half recanted, that's a pretty big chunk of Witneses and a victory for Hitler, while Watchtower insists that virtually all remained unbroken.

Of course the Gestapo were probably interested in reporting high numbers to show their success too. Maybe both Watchtower and the Gestapo were fudging the reports.

Birds of a feather?

53

Display of National Flags in Kingdom Halls in Chile: WTS' Response

by BluesBrother in

remember this and other threads a few months back, on the subject that some kingdom halls in chile acquiesced to govt rules that every building should display the national flag on the day of celebration?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262505/kingdom-hall-chile-has-national-flag?size=20&page=1.

many of us here and around the net, calling on our dub experiences cried "never would that happen!

ScenicViewer

I wonder how long it would take for the elders to show up if a JW flew a flag at his house.

53

Display of National Flags in Kingdom Halls in Chile: WTS' Response

by BluesBrother in

remember this and other threads a few months back, on the subject that some kingdom halls in chile acquiesced to govt rules that every building should display the national flag on the day of celebration?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262505/kingdom-hall-chile-has-national-flag?size=20&page=1.

many of us here and around the net, calling on our dub experiences cried "never would that happen!

ScenicViewer

TTATTelder: What happened to not stumbling others?

Very good observation.
Also, we have been told that appearances matter, and Christians should always avoid the appearance of wrong doing.
So, it's clear that the rules apply only to individual witnesses, not to the Watchtower organization itself. Yes, what hypocrisy.

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

Obviously, any JWs claiming they don't have this problem as bad as the Catholic Church are very wrong.

to Gayle!

Thanks for the information re the Wilson Elser law firm. People that count are watching!

38

What is the main reason the Watchtower Society baptize their children so young?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

jesus was thirty was he was baptized.

today, you hear of young children getting baptized as young as 10 years old.

the parents, family and congregation think it's a wonderful idea that someone dedicates their life to jehovah at such a young age.

ScenicViewer

insidetheKH said: ...you forget that at the time that Jesus walked the earth John the Baptist just started with baptising people.

What does that have to do with anything? Scriptural answer please.

furthermore billions of people (in other denominations that consider themselves christian) are baptised right after they are born

Again, how is that relevant? Watchtower's baptism of children is much closer to the infant baptisms of the Catholic Church than to the fully adult baptisms of the Bible.

Anyway the main reason is,... WHY NOT baptise Teens? We let them make career and education choices that influence them the rest of their lifes at that age so why not the choice to serve Jehovah?

Why not? Because it's not Bible based, and JWs claim to follow the Bible to the letter. Don't overlook the good responses of previous posters which show that career and education choices are not nearly as heavy as the choice to get baptised.

there are biblical examples of young people who make a stand for Jehovah,.. Samuel did, David did,.. Jesus did, to name a few

Yes, they "made a stand for Jehovah," but making a stand wasn't the question, getting baptised was. Jesus may have made a stand at a young age, but he was baptised when he was 30.

It appears you have answered the question about child baptism with what makes sense to JWs, which is meaningless since many things have been proved wrong that made sense to them in the past.

Remember an admission that Watchtower has had to make regarding things that made sense at the time but turned out to be wrong.

"With varying degrees of success, they endeavored to avoid being dogmatic about details not directly stated in the Scriptures." (Proclaimers book, p135)

That response in itself is very slippery because it relates to Watchtower's teachings of 1925 which included HUGE false prophecies, most of which have been completely whitewashed by JWs, but at least they admitted they should stick with things that are "directly stated in the Scriptures."

So let's do that here. What are the Scriptural reasons for baptising children?

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

I should have mentioned that Campos abused Lopez, age 7 at the time, in 1986. According to the news report linked above, Campos became an elder in 1993, about 7 years after the abuse happened.

Putting the information together, if Campos was 'disqualified for many years' from being an elder, then in Watchtower thinking 'many years' is about 7 years.

111

Conti Appeal Preview - Oral Argument Jan 14

by Chaserious in

with hopefully a good deal of interest here in the conti appeal tomorrow (or later today, depending on where you are), i thought that on my ride home from work tonight i'd preview what to expect and what i think the key issues are for any who are interested.

i have had a busy few weeks and haven't had time to read everything, but i had some time to look at the appeal briefs during my work commute the past couple days.

it'll be interesting to see what develops out of the network news coverage of this case.

ScenicViewer

Nitty-Gritty said: The facts are that child molesters will never be able to serve in any capacity ever.

This is of interest to me. Do you have a source for this remark? Is it in Watchtower publications? Any references would be appreciated.

The information I have seen til now suggests the opposite is true, that child molesters can become servants or elders later on.

I. The current Elder's Manual, if I'm reading it correctly, says it's possible for a known child molester to become an elder. Notice the last sentence of par 20 below.

"For example, the sin may involve past child abuse, and this would likely disqualify him for many years."

So a known child molester could be disqualified from being an elder for "many years," but not permanently, and only "likely" so at that, not definitely so.

II. This is what happened in the recent legal case of victim Jose Lopez, handled by Irwin Zalkin, who was molested by Gonzalo Campos.

The information below is according to the U-T San Diego online newspaper. Complete article is here,

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/oct/31/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-judgment-lopez/

After Lopez reported the molestation to his mother she approached the elders. Then the article says,

"According to trial evidence, the church judicial committee looked into the allegations and found that Campos was repentant. It monitored his behavior for a period of nine months but did not expel him from the church.

"In fact, Campos went on to rise through the ranks of the church, continuing to teach Bible studies to young children and ultimately becoming an elder in 1993. At one point he left the Linda Vista congregation and moved to one in La Jolla. He was ultimately kicked out of the church in 1995, after another victim surfaced, but was reinstated in 2000, court records show." (By Christina Davis, Oct 31, 2014) Highlighting added.

Granted, news papers can get facts wrong, but if this is accurate it illustrates what the Elder's Manual says, and Campos became an elder after being a known molester.

Again, any references to support your remark that this can't happen would be appreciated.

24

Emblem Takers Mentally Unstable?

by Cold Steel in

onthewayout wrote: of course, for quite awhile (and probably still), congregations have been viewing any relatively young (maybe under 50 or even 60) partakers as mentally unstable and watchtower ignores such people anyway and says they must listen to the elders.

is this correct?

ever since the emblem-takers were given emeritus status as members of the faithful and discreet slave, have they been relegated to standard membership?

ScenicViewer

We represent the faithful slave:

"... Governing Body, which represents "the faithful and discreet slave." -- W 6-15-09, p.24

contrast with:

But we we don't talk to them, know them or give a flying fig who they are:

"The Governing Body...does not consult with... does not maintain a global network of anointed ones." -- w8/15/2011

Now that's funny.

You would think the FDS would appoint it's own representitive, but since the GB never knew those who make up the FDS how could the GB have been appointed by the FDS; the GB is in effect saying "we never knew you" to the Slave, but we appoint ourselves to represent you.

The truth is, the GB was always self-appointed in claiming to be the FDS' rep.

Of course this has all changed now, since the GB claims to be, not just the representitive of the FDS, but the FDS itself!

The new move may have eliminated the above problem of the GB having to actually know who they are representing, but it simply escalated their self-appointment to a higher level, and it makes the GB even more arrogant now than before.

ScenicViewer

Posts by ScenicViewer

Isaiah 1:18 (King James)