Posts by mindseye

68

Is there a correlation between personality type and leaving the WT?...

by Tuesday in

jw
friends

on facebook tonight there was a post asking to take a personality test, in posting the personality tests a trend started emerging that certain personality types seem to leave around the same time.. i came out as an intj which is introverted intuitive thinking judging.

which a good paragraph describing it was:.

intjs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "does it work?

mindseye

INFP here with a strong T. Was born in, left unbaptized in late teens (don't remember exact age, just slowly drew away). Reason: My type tends to value authenticity. Once I learned the truth about the truth, I never felt at ease with the Witnesses. Also, I could never reconcile my 'independent thinking/feeling' personality with the nature of the religion. The religion clashed with my ideals.

I find the Witnesses cater to SJ type temperament. The doctrinal, rigid nature of the religion tends to attract those who value structure above all else.

Of course there's plenty of NTs and NFs that stay in and SJs and SPs that leave. I think the motivations are different. Intuitives are theoretical thinkers, and are more likely to question doctrine. But many may suppress these thoughts due to the org's guilt tripping, and ties to family. SJs and SPs tend to feel more at home in an 'organization', but may leave due to a certain event that triggers doubt. It may be an experience with an elder, a shunning, etc.

Of course these are all generalizations from my own experience, and may vary in individual circumstances. I find my relatives who are SJ/SP function better in the org to an extent (though they don't seem truly happy), while my relatives that are N tend to fight their temperament. I think there's a great deal of cognitive dissonance among Ns who begin to analyze and dissect the doctrine.

40

What if you admitted you don't mind being destroyed @ Armaggedon?

by Knowsnothing in

isn't that pretty much the end of a conversation with a jw?.

honestly, now that i think about it, what is the difference between judgment day(armaggedon) and death?.

just curious to see how my friends and relatives would react if i responded that way... .

mindseye

I've told this to my family, to their bemusement. If death is only eternal sleep, the thought never really bothered me.

36

I'm not a fan of Jung, but...

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

thought this was a good article to give hope to the "non-religious":.

what would carl jung make of 2011?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13645959.

carl gustav jung died 50 years ago today.

mindseye

scotoma: The only thing that I like about Jung is that he felt God should be a Quaternity NOT a Trinity. He accomplises this by including the Devil in the Godhead. Until we accept that the Devil is a necessary God function we will never get cured.

Yes! Satan is Yin to God's Yang. One cannot exist without the other.

doofdaddy: What I was commenting on was that "Jung channelled on a regular basis". From what I understand, Jung was in a psychotic state between 1914-18 and wrote via "Philemon". He, as a true "hero" fought through the darkness and came back completely sane. He used this experience as the basis of his further work but as far as I hnow "Philemon" wasn't contacted again...True?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure his encounters with Philemon and other paranormal experiences were only during this time.

Interesting side note: In my previous post I mentioned that Jung 'channelled' Basilides while writing the Sermons. I've read more of Hoeller's book, and it's his view that it was not 'channeling' but merely a matter of modesty. Like many writers of Mystic literature, Jung felt that he was writing from a 'higher self' than his own ego, so he attributed the Sermons to the ancient teacher.

ProdigalSon: This is what bothers me about 'religious' people.......Why is it that humans have these 'psychic' abilities, but only Satan, his demons and anyone who worships them are allowed to use it?

I agree ProdigalSon. It seems religious people give so much more power to Satan than God!

designs: One of the fascinating phenoms about xJWs who seek to stay religious is how often they end up in groups with the same narrow mind set and controlling atmosphere they left behind.

I don't understand. How are any of Jung's views, or the Gnosticism he identified with representative of a narrow mind set? On the contrary, Jung opened a way to a spiritual outlook free of dogma and reductionistic fundamentalism. As his archetypical place, he identified with Alexandria, the Egyptian city that stood for religious and philosophical pluralism, filled with spiritual creativity and freedom. This stood in contrast to Jerusalem, which as an archetype stood for the jealous Patriarchal God - with law, dogma and orthodoxy.

22

Paradise Earth

by MrFreeze in

so, lets speak hypothetically here.

lets say the wt is right about paradise earth and the new world.

if we did live forever, what would happen if we fell off a cliff accidentally?

mindseye

I always wondered about the specifics of Paradise as a kid. I figured we would just grow back limbs and regenerate if caught in a fire, kind of like the Terminator.

And since no one would die, what would happen when the earth would fill up to the breaking point? Would Jehovah cause condoms and birth control to rain down like manna? Would he change the rules and command everyone to be homosexual? Maybe the WT gave some half-assed answer for this one, I don't remember.

36

I'm not a fan of Jung, but...

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

thought this was a good article to give hope to the "non-religious":.

what would carl jung make of 2011?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13645959.

carl gustav jung died 50 years ago today.

mindseye

Jung did 'channel' early Gnostic teacher Basilides for the Seven Sermons of the Dead. He also had a spirit guide named Philemon. In Hoeller's commentary on Seven Sermons of the Dead, he writes how Jung had paranormal experiences in his house before he committed to his 'automatic writings' by Basilides.

Of course, detractors use this to mock Jung and dismiss him as a 'mystic'. From what I've read, it's hard to determine how literally he took these 'paranormal' experiences. It's possible he had some kind of psychosis, but was aware of it and used it as a source for his studies into the psyche. I strongly disagree that he was a 'charlatan'. What an overly rational approach often misses is that there is a side of the psyche that is highly irrational, and these irrational processes should not be dismissed as merely neurotic. The irrational has meaning too.

IMO, Jung gave us a middle way between mechanistic rationalism and rigid theological fundamentalism. He recognized the need for the 'spirituality' of the psyche, what most people call the 'soul'. In his more mainstream writings he gave us great insight into our personalities and development. To dismiss his work is to miss a treasure trove of value, especially for those making the transition from the theological point of view of the JWs.

35

Where the need is great

by noontide in

jw
friends

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wow, havent been around here in a while and it's nice to see some familiar names as well as new ones.. .

well, its that time of year again when some members of my family decide that they need to go preach where the need is great.

mindseye

Forget the Islamic countries. What about seemingly more accessible countries such as subcontinent India? The Watchtower Society's been "active" in that country for over 100 years. Yet, look at the tiny number of JWs and the vast millions upon millions of people who've never heard of JWs.

I'm guessing the difficulty JWs have in making inroads in some of these countries is mainly cultural. Its roots are American through & through - born alongside that sort of reactionary fundamentalism of the Millerites and other religions founded in the 1800s. Going door to door is a lot easier when there's a chance you'll be preaching to the choir. And no matter how much work is done "where the need is greater", the results will be mediocre if there's a huge cultural barrier there.

36

I'm not a fan of Jung, but...

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

thought this was a good article to give hope to the "non-religious":.

what would carl jung make of 2011?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13645959.

carl gustav jung died 50 years ago today.

mindseye

In short, the life of the psyche is crucial. Jung believed it is fed not just by psychology, but better by the great spiritual traditions of our culture, with their subtle stories, sustaining rituals and inspiring dreams. The agnostic West has become detached from these resources.

I largely agree with Jung here.

Thanks for posting this. I've been reading some Jung related books lately, and his ideas resonate with me. He points a spiritual way for those who don't identify with the fundamentalist/literalist strain in religion. Right now I'm reading Stephan Hoeller's "The Gnostic Jung and the Seven Sermons of the Dead", which talks about Jung's Gnosticism. It's pretty fascinating stuff, maybe I'll start a thread when I get more time.

77

Association: Am i being lied to?

by roxanesophia in

i don't hesitate to bring up with the girl i study with, my criticisms of the religion, and one of those is the association.

i keep reading on here that jw's don't make friends outside the cult, and this is what i used as an excuse for stepping further away from being baptized.

she tells me it's not true, and they can have what ever friends they want.

mindseye

Technically what she is saying is true. As an individual with free will you can do whatever you want. But there will be repercussions. Mad Sweeney's post is right on the money.

My Witness family often uses this line of reasoning on me. They realize how much I value my independence, so they will say "Oh, you're overreacting. You are free to do x, y, z...." Then I ask, well what if I go to see a Rated R movie with my 'worldly' friend? What if I have a book about Charles Darwin, St. Augustine or Buddha on my bookshelf? What if I want to grow a goatee? Well then the answers get more complicated.

"It's a matter of conscience" and "You can do that, but why would you want to disobey Jehovah?" or some of the answers I get. Basically if you stray from the script they put you through a guilt trip. Reactions vary, but a person who has 'worldly' habits can be ostracized, 'talked' to, or disfellowshipped.

Basically the JW religion is an authoritarian group. It acts like a Daddy figure for the members. And like a kid, you can do what you want, but expect consequences!

17

Reasons "love bombing" ceases

by roxanesophia in

i study with a highly esteemed pioneer & elder's kid and i've learned on here that pioneers are right up there when it comes to gossip, as are elders kids, so i've got a double whammy.

unfortunately i didn't learn that until after i'd trusted her.

call me a moron but i'm totally drawn in by the kindness.

mindseye

Witness My Fury is right on, all of this is subconscious on the part of the Witness. It's not as if a Witness thinks "Time to lovebomb now" or "They're asking too many questions, time to abort operation lovebomb." No, the training runs so deep that they do this stuff without hardly thinking about it. Their behavior is so ingrained that they subconsciously avoid certain subjects, lines of reasoning and debate.

...maybe I'm imagining it, but the 'love' has cooled off. Dunno if they're annoyed that i had stumbled across the list of topics they can't speak about,or if I'm not progressing fast enough.

Both. That is exactly what is happening.

How long does it take them to mark someone as spiritually weak?

When you ask too many questions, don't toe the Watchtower line and show too much 'independent thinking.' If you express too many criticisms, they may say that you're not being 'upbuilding'. If you continue to express doubts they will probably stop studying with you.

Call me a moron but i'm totally drawn in by the kindness.

Not moronic at all, it's natural to want to be around kind people and have a social outlet. And rank & file Witnesses are generally kind people (as long as you toe the line). I was born-in but never got baptized, so some still talk to me on a casual level, and are generally kind (as long as we stick to 'how's the weather?'). But if you fully join (i.e. get baptized) the kindness comes with a price: total indoctrination and subordination of your intellectual & spiritual freedom. As you become a Witness, what you read, watch and think is subservient to the Watchtower society.

If you need social interaction I recommend joining a club, taking classes at the nearest university or some other avenue. Studying with the JWs comes with too high a price, that is if you value your freedom as an individual.

10

Jehovahs witnesses the only religion being persecuted

by deservingone26 in

so i was talking to one of my jw family members and they have been really trying to get me to come back.

they believe that they are part of the only true religion.

one of the reasons was because of them being the only religion that is being persecuted they claimed and somewhere in texas or some where in the midwest or something a memorial was raided by a group of people and i guess they planned at a football game or something?

mindseye

Jehovah Witnesses the ONLY religion being persecuted? LOL. More like persecution complex.

Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and about every other group are persecuted in some form. JWs are as well (like recently in Russia). But ONLY religion?

In western democracies, I find what Witnesses think of as 'persecution' pretty laughable. They'll often look for any situation as 'evidence' that they are being persecuted, for instance tv exposés exposing child abuse, criticism of false doctrines, kids getting picked on in school, etc. Growing up, I even overheard my family saying that younger people leaving the 'truth' was 'persecution' and sign of the great tribulation. I was thinking, if that's the great tribulation the JWs are getting off pretty easy!