Posts by Liberty

25

Question for JW believers...or whoever wants to answer

by kittyeatzjdubs in

jw
friends

i often wondered this myself a lot growing up, and i must know.... if there was no paradise hope, no promise of living forever or having your dead loved ones resurrected....would you still serve your god and follow the organization?

would you have ever began studying with the witnesses for that matter or stayed in the ''truth'' if you were raised in it?.

because isn't that the golden ticket that jw's wave in front of their studies or interested ones?

Liberty

The concept of being rewarded (bribed) by a Super Being into being His follower just didn't wash clean in my mind. This, along with other moral and logic problems of JWdom caused me to question my faith in Johoba and Watchtowerism. The concept of Free Will makes no sense if one is punished for making "the wrong choice" or is rewarded for making "the right choice". A Free Will by its very definition should mean that I can make a choice free of any outside pressure positive or negative, otherwise it isn't a "Free" choice at all. A Free Will choice to me is when a kind host offers you Scotch or Rum to drink or Vanilla or Chocolate ice cream to eat and doesn't care one way or the other which or niether you may choose. Only I can weigh the choice and decide if I want to experience one taste sensation or the other but the instant I am branded with a red hot poker or given a million dollars depending on the "rightness" of my choice it ceases to be a free choice.

If God was really capable of creating an entire Universe from nothing then He shouldn't need the worship/addoration of a bunch of shaved apes in a 3rd rate star system whom He must entice with rewards and punishments spelled out by a bunch of speculations/interpretations based on some ancient gibberish thrown together to form the Bible. Classic Christianity and Watchtowerism are both based on so many illogical thought combinations that it became impossible for me to believe in either at some point. If I am punished in any way for not doing what God wants for my own good then why not just create a mindset in me that forces me to do it anyway since any other alternative would be both cruel and redundent.

42

JW's are LOSING IT

by GetBusyLiving in

jw
friends

at one of the last bookstudies i ever attended i heard a comment that really struck home to me how desperate these people really are getting, to the edge of insanity.

an older woman commented, "you can tell the end is coming.. its in the air.. you can feel it.. there is something in the air.. times are just.. different" and the whole time she was manically glancing around the room.

the conductor agreed with her.

Liberty

Just as others have remembered I heard the same thing over & over again back in the late 1960's and throughout the 70's. In 1973 everyone was saying this would be the last Assembly in this "Old System of Things" and ever after that everyone kept repeating "things just can't go on much longer". Long after I faded in the early 80's, around 1988 my JW Aunt was still telling me how close the End was and how I needed to attend meetings again. She to is now long dead with no big "A" in sight. What a pipe dream! How sad so many lived such wasted lives for this complete fantasy nonevent.

In the late 1960's and early 70's all this seemed much more real because so many "worldly" experts agreed that there were numerous world-ending problems boiling over all over the Globe and the Watch Tower used quaotes from them to strengthen their arguments. a Cold War ready to explode into full blown "hot" war with Vietnam being one of the ignition points with the potential for Nukes and Germ warfare being used. Polution out of control poisoning everyone, the threat of another Ice Age, crime and violence stats going through the roof, immorality, drugs, fuel shortages, famines, Middle Eastern turmoil, and on and on. The movies from this period also fueled this "End of the World" feeling such as Soilent Green, Omega Man, A Boy And His Dog, Planet of The Apes, just to name a few. There really was a general feeling among JWs and non JWs alike that things were going to Hell in a hand basket because of the social upheaval and general changes society was going through in this period. The music and popular culture celebrated rebellion and the movies and TV shows were darkly obsessed with crime and vice as cities like New York, Chicago, and L.A. had record crime and murder rates with active Red Light districts. Crime dramas quickly replaced the Westerns of the early 60's on TV and movies like Taxi Driver, Dirty Harry, Dog Day Afternoon, Midnight Cowboy, Hard Core, Death Wish, The French Connection, Serpico, The God Father, Walking Tall, Billy Jack, showed the dark underbelly of America.

In short, there was much more external evidence for the Watch Tower bunch to point to back then than today and I can't imagine that it feels as real for the JWs today as it did for us back then. Not to mention the WWII era, if this Hell on Earth wasn't the beginning of Armageddon then nothing else could be. Old Rutherford had lots of evidence for the END during this period and yet it never came. Things look pretty damn hopeful now days compared to these times so I think we are going to be fine. I would guess your average JW today is far more skeptical about the big "A" today than at anytime in the Watchtower Organization's failed predictive history and I'm guessing their stagnant growth is evidence of this lack of enthusiasm for all things Apocolyptic.

25

The JW new world system scum

by greendawn in

we now know that the new system of things as imagined by the jws is a myth, a poison that's meant to seduce the unaware into the org so that they can then be controlled, abused, and exploited.

but during the time when you were taken in by the myth what sort of things were you imagining about this delightful new world and your participation in it?

or perhaps deep down you never really believed it and ignored it.

Liberty

Thanks for the chuckle love2bworldly. I had hoped to see if other JWs ever thought of Paradise in the same hypersexual way that I did or perhaps I should just admit that I was a freak. I really am curious to see how others viewed Paradise. One of the things that really turned me off to Watchtowerism over the years was realizing just how materialistic the Society was and how this attitude trickled down to the Rank & file JWs. It really was all about the physical. Spirituality is a myth among the JWs.

25

The JW new world system scum

by greendawn in

we now know that the new system of things as imagined by the jws is a myth, a poison that's meant to seduce the unaware into the org so that they can then be controlled, abused, and exploited.

but during the time when you were taken in by the myth what sort of things were you imagining about this delightful new world and your participation in it?

or perhaps deep down you never really believed it and ignored it.

Liberty

OHHHHH...I BELIEVED! Back when I was a horny little kid in the late 1960's early 1970's I could almost taste the New World because it was sooo real to me. Mainly I imagined what the girls were going to be like, eternally young and all perfected for my enjoyment. I fantasized a lot about getting polygomy reinstated by Ol'Jehoover so I could have several wives...errr...I mean repopulate the earth like they did in the old Bible days. I figured if Big J allowed polygomy for His favoured ancients then we deserved it as well. I figured that the W.T. Society was just speculating about the continuation of monogomy and the end of reproduction at some point and I really felt sorry for the resurrected who would already be remade without the ability to reproduce or maybe even lack sex organs. I hoped for their sake that the Watch Tower was wrong on that one. After all, endless sex with perfect girls was really the main component of a real paradise for me anyway. Oh yeah, I also figured once we reached perfection we could all go back to being naked again like Adam & Eve, so I'd have a whole world of perfect, young, and naked women to oogle even if I couln't marry them all.

Petting lions and tigers is all right but being feed grapes and being serviced in general by several well built naked slave girls was more my style even as a 10 year old. I am not trying to be offensive to women as I am now much older and wiser (spirit-broken?) but truely this was my main fantasy about paradise as horny little boy. This fantasy seems so unrealistic now years later but it sure drove me on back when the big A was "right around the corner"before 1975. I figured that even if the Society was right about monogomy in the New System I'd have a perfect wife who'd always be young, beautiful, and willing. I made it through a lot of boring meetings and assymblies daydreaming about various JW hotties and how much better they'd be when they got all perfected up. Boy Howdy did I ever get a shock as '75 receeded into the distant past and reality came a knock'n. Perfect for me now would be any female who says a kind word to my ugly ass as I feed them grapes and clean up after them.

42

At last finished reading Crisis of Conscience

by diamondblue1974 in

jw
friends

.

and what an eye opener it was...dont get me wrong i faded some 10 years ago and the reasons for such were contained in the book, i.e 1914, failed prophecies and so forth.. the expose is disarming by its objective style and whilst i now read any literature through sceptical eyes i could see a person genuinely grieved by what had taken place and the crisis he was subjected to conscientiously; it said it all to me when he said that his aim was not to divert people from the jws but give them support so they could develop as christians and therefore allow them to come to their own conclusions (or words to that effect).. extremely well written and consise with reams of references (which i happen to love).. anyone that is recently out must read this book...it objective, honest and was totally surprising in parts.. db74

Liberty

Hi TweetieBird,

I don't know how many copies are out there but I had to comment on those people who claim to have read the book and yet say it didn't change their feelings about the Watch Tower Society. These folks must believe that Raymond Franz is a complete liar and a master of fiction writing because even if just half of the book were true and understood to be from the view point of a disgruntled employee it still provides more than enough evidence to damn the Watch Tower Society. It is so clear that the organization is morally corrupt and riddled with false teachings that no amount of creative writings could come up with this much absurd nonsense and bizaare politicing behind the scenes. Only a very knowledgable insider and someone with an incredable imagination could come up with a story like this and someone with that good of an imagination would be writing best selling fiction and not wasting their time bashing a piss-ant group like the JWs.

The longer a JW has been involved with the Society the more the book rings true because I remember many of the organizational changes and date pushing from the late 1960's and on and you just can't make that stuff up and have it all add up in the end. Someone would have to really have a complete lack of critical thinking ability in order to not be moved on some level by this book if they were ever a JW and really sat down and read it.

42

At last finished reading Crisis of Conscience

by diamondblue1974 in

jw
friends

.

and what an eye opener it was...dont get me wrong i faded some 10 years ago and the reasons for such were contained in the book, i.e 1914, failed prophecies and so forth.. the expose is disarming by its objective style and whilst i now read any literature through sceptical eyes i could see a person genuinely grieved by what had taken place and the crisis he was subjected to conscientiously; it said it all to me when he said that his aim was not to divert people from the jws but give them support so they could develop as christians and therefore allow them to come to their own conclusions (or words to that effect).. extremely well written and consise with reams of references (which i happen to love).. anyone that is recently out must read this book...it objective, honest and was totally surprising in parts.. db74

Liberty

One of the biggest JW myths R. Franz proves a lie in C.o.C. is the nonsense promoted by the Society that God's earthly organization is spirit directed through the living remnent of the 144,000 who collectively and mystically leads the organization. It is very clear that the vast majority of this "special" class have absolutely no say in producing Watch Tower Society's dogma or administration. It was very clear that until the mid 1970's the Society was directed by the dictatorial powers of just one or two top leaders at any given time and even since the mid seventies by a small body of top leaders. One of the most influential of these leaders, Fred Franz (Ray's Uncle) admits that he always thought that the Society would be run by chosen individuals right down until the big "A" in direct contrast to what was written by this very same man for general consumption for the Rank & File JWs. The Anointed, as a class, never ran the Society and still don't today so the JWs are not even consistant within their own beliefs about the authority structure of the only "true Christian" organization. Fred Franz even fought the concept ( which he invented) of sharing power with the small Governing Body so there are even layers upon layers of contradictions within the thought patterns of the modern W.T. Society's chief prophet/scholar. Such confused thinking would never be allowed by a real intelligent super being like God in the leadership directing His organization.

A great read! My only criticism would be my not understanding how such a bright fellow as R. Franz didn't take the next logical step in applying his intellegent skepticism to the Bible itself. The fact that he remains a Bible believer to this day is shocking to me. The power of tradition is very strong so in my opinion he remains himself "a victim of a concept", in this case traditional Christianity. This works out better I think though for any JW willing to examine his/her questions about the W.T. Society since reading a book by a full blown Atheist would stop many from learning the important information R. Franz has provided in his writtings.

138

Guns: Opinions?

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

my mom isnt a big fan of guns, but after being mugged once, she appreciates the value of a well placed firearm.

she doesn't mind that i hunt and go to the shooting range regularly with my father.

about 6 months ago, i was out in field service with my mother and an elder's 2 daughters.

Liberty

Hi Evilforce,

I'm actually much better armed than with just a pistol but thats beside the point. Any weapon is better than no weapon. It doesn't matter if we are up against tanks ,bombs, or even nukes, just ask the Viet Cong. An enemy's will to fight is greatly affected by the casualties they are willing to take. Bullies and paid killers have a low tolerance for pain and death so governments rely on sending their armies against helpless victims who cannot fight back effectively rather than against anyone who can offer resistance even if it is only pistol or rifle fire. Also it takes small arms to capture larger weapons. That is why we dropped thousands of pistols to the various resistance fighters behind Nazi lines in WWII so that they could harass the enemy, break their will to fight, and capture larger weapons.

Also think about it, if my measley guns are no match for the power of big government then why are they so eager to take them? Small scale rebellions against local police are much easier with my weapons than without. If my friends and family are jailed and tortured without just cause I am much better preparred to assemble an assault team to break in and free them than if I am armed only with butter knives. Police do not want to face angry well armed citizens, hence there are few cases of abuse in the US compared to countries which keep their civilians disarmed. Local police will not be as well armed as a military force and this is where it starts. I am out of time but at least think about it.

138

Guns: Opinions?

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

my mom isnt a big fan of guns, but after being mugged once, she appreciates the value of a well placed firearm.

she doesn't mind that i hunt and go to the shooting range regularly with my father.

about 6 months ago, i was out in field service with my mother and an elder's 2 daughters.

Liberty

Thanks Brandon,

Our European friends on this board frequently amaze me with their anti-gun rhetoric ( not all and some Americans too) since they have seen first hand what governments do on a regular basis right in their own back yards. How can they ignor so easily the governments of Nazis, Fascists, and Communists who have murdered millions upon millions while at the same time being afraid of a few "red necks with assault rifles"? I'll take my chances with my fellow armed citizens any day over brainwashed hoards of 18 year olds given complete authority by governments over my life and property. If I can trust a Dr. to prescribe drugs or cut me open or my day care operator to keep my baby then I am perfectly comfortable with trusting them with weapons. Individual criminals and wackos are the least of our worries since statistically our chances of dying are far greater at the hands of a government.

138

Guns: Opinions?

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

my mom isnt a big fan of guns, but after being mugged once, she appreciates the value of a well placed firearm.

she doesn't mind that i hunt and go to the shooting range regularly with my father.

about 6 months ago, i was out in field service with my mother and an elder's 2 daughters.

Liberty

Hi RichieRich,

For years the Watchtower Society has been pretty much anti-gun. A lot of it has to do with their headquarters being centered in New York as the most influential writers/leaders have been insulated from the rest of the rural U.S. in their cushy big city compound. Fred Franz was very anti-gun as I recall despite the fact that the Bible clearly states that the Apostles carried swords as active members of Christ's inner circle and at one point were even commanded to carry swords with them in their ministry work (I can't remember the scriptures but know they are there). This irrational fear of weapons goes along with their equally unscriptural pacifism. No where are soldiers commanded to leave their military units in the Bible as a condition for becoming Christians. As I recall one Roman soldier was even baptised on the spot by the Apostles with no mention of him needing to change his profession, or recieveing a timed Bible study and prewritten baptismal questions for that matter.

When Freddie's influence was strong the Society even bad-mouthed hunting by always tying it in with the evil Nimrod and asking if we really needed such a suspect and time-wasting hobby when there was field ministry to be done. Once again the unscriptural opinions of a few men running the show from New York shapes what J-Dubs must do just like no facial hair or wearing a tie even though none of these points were important enough to be mentioned by the Bible writers.

As to my own opinion, weapons in civilian hands are our last defense against the loss of freedom by the ever power hungry monster of government. Governments who are directly answerable to the deadly force wealded by their free citizens think more carefully before taking drastic actions than do governments which control unarmed subjects. If I am trusted enough to vote so then I should be trusted with weapons. The people need "the teeth of liberty" to protect themselves from government and any goverment which demands it be protected from an armed population through so-called "gun control" obviously does not have the people's best interests at heart. Only brute force can hold back the beast of government. Governments have always been the world's most prolific mass murderers so only a fool would lay down their arms and trust their naked and unprotected lives to these time proven monsters.

43

Did our ancestors really live for hundreds of years?

by pennycandy in

jw
friends

for all you scientific brains out there .

.. the bible claims lifespans of over 900 years.

what does science say about this?.

Liberty

JH & Doogie,

I must have been writing at the same time you guys were. You made some great points and I didn't want it to look like I was just copying/mocking you.