Wore the pants out, binned the Coats, wore trackpants for most of exjw life.
fulltimestudent
JoinedPosts by fulltimestudent
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49
What Did You Do With All Your Meeting Clothes?
by minimus ini literally had dozens of suits.
i still have more dress clothes than anyone i know.
i did give some suits and clothing away and to be honest, i still like wearing a nice suit.. brothers and sisters, are all your “ meeting clothes” still in your closet?
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Food for thought-if it wasn't for the Roman Catholic church would Christianity have faded out into oblivion?
by nowwhat? insince it was the church that put together the bible canon and it was was them that spread the teaching throughout the known world.
thoughts?.
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fulltimestudent
resolute Bandicoot:: "we would all be living in the dark ages, speaking arabic and raising our butts to allah."
Umm, well, maybe!
First of all, I do not think it can be argued that Islamic West Asia lived like the so-called 'dark ages' of an earlier Western Europe. That idea is a late Western fantasy.
Second, if the Mongolians had continued their European campaign we'd all be speaking Mongolian and instead of listening to Rock and Roll we'd be listening to Mongolian throat singing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rmo3fKeveo
Why didn't it happen? A possible reason (it has been thought) was the death of the Great Khan Ogedei, which meant that the leaders of the Mongol Armies in Europe returned to Mongolia to elect a new leader.
Quote: "During 1241, most of the Mongol forces were resting on the Hungarian Plain. In late March 1242, they began to withdraw. The most common reason given for this withdrawal is the Great Khan Ögedei's death on December 11, 1241. Ögedei Khan died at the age of fifty-six after a binge of drinking during a hunting trip, which forced most of the Mongolian army to retreat back to Mongolia so that the princes of the blood could be present for the election of a new great khan. This is attested to by one primary source: the chronicle of Giovanni da Pian del Carpine, who after visiting the Mongol court, stated that the Mongols withdrew for this reason; he further stated that God had caused the Great Khan's death to protect Latin Christendom."
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe
Another reason may have bee Donald Trump and Scott Morrison's bete noire - "climate change*"
Quote: "In 1241, the Mongol army marched into Hungary, defeating the Polish and Hungarian armies and forcing the Hungarian king to flee. In 1242, despite meeting no significant military resistance, the Mongols abruptly packed up and left.
Now, a new study of the climate in Eastern Europe that year suggests a reason for this mysterious military retreat: The Mongols got bogged down. Literally.
A cold and snowy winter yielded to a particularly wet spring in Hungary in 1242, according to data from tree rings. As a result, the grasslands of Hungary turned to marsh, said study researcher Nicola Di Cosmo, a historian at Princeton University. The Mongols, dependent on their horses, wouldn't have been able to move effectively across the squishy land, and their steeds would have had few fields to graze."
Stephanie Pappas May 27, 2016 inLiVEScience - Link: https://www.livescience.com/54902-mystery-of-mongol-retreat-solved.html
* A more accurate description would be a weather event, rather than climate change. -
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Greek Myth and the Bible
by Doug Mason inwhile the cost of the physical book, "greek myth and the bible" by bruce louden is beyond my means, the kindle version is tempting.. a preview is available at amazon and a critical review is available at:.
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2019/2019-08-03.html .
doug.
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fulltimestudent
Thank you Doug for sharing this review of Louden's book with us.
Once I abandoned the mental chains of Watchtower think, I started to grasp the poin that Louden illustrates, i,e, that whenever one culture comes into contact with another culture, there will be an interchange of ideas.
Louden illustrates Jewish writers using Greek (or hellenic) stories in the writing of religious texts that were later collected together to form the OT.
But was Greek culture itself affected by another culture. It has been conjectured by many that the Greeks admired Egyptian wisdom. What do we make of this:
"Just over a year ago an eager team of archaeologists scoured through the mud and groundwater of a slum in Cairo erected on the ruins of the pharaonic city of Heliopolis. There they uncovered a gigantic statue, which they believed represented the pharaoh Ramses the Great. Euphoria soon gave way to slight disappointment when it was discovered that the statue was not of Ramses but a lesser-known seventh century BCE ruler of Egypt, Psamtik I.
While almost forgotten by the modern world, Psamtik was once revered as a decisive ruler who boosted trade and diplomatic relations with Greece. His policies allowed the Hellenes to establish colonies on Egyptian soil for the first time, opening the door to a trading and cultural relationship that would endure for more than three hundred years.
Later Greek and non-Greek Hellenistic historians, such as Herodotus in his Histories, were convinced that this was the spark that ignited an axial shift in Greek culture, which saw philosophy spring forth majestically from Greek soil. To many of them, it was in Heliopolis that the most profound Greek thinkers, such as Pythagoras and Plato, learned the basis of their metaphysics, astronomy, or geometry."
(Quoted from Peter Flegel's article, Does Western Philosophy have Egyptian Roots, published on the web-site Philosophy Now. Link: https://philosophynow.org/issues/128/Does_Western_Philosophy_Have_Egyptian_Roots )
(Its important to remember also, that the Egyptians were most likely the descendants of West Asian migrants)
And what do we make of the remark in Acts that, "Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action." (Acts 7:22 NIV) when we recall that for a few hundred years Palestine, the traditional home of the ancestors of the Jewish people, was part of the Egyptian Empire and controlled by Egypt, just as in Jesus time, Judah etc was part of an Hellenic Empire.
And in the Babylonian captivity were the elite Jewish scholars who the Babylonians carted off to Babylon affected by Babylonian wisdom? When Babylon was defeated by the Persians it is likely that these elite Jewish scholars (man of whom did not return to Jerusalem) absorbed Zoroastrian ideas and incorporated them into documents that later became part of the Bible.
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fulltimestudent
Diogenesister Quote: "...There were quite a few New Zealander’s parachuted in and chosen for their ability to blend in apparently these were soldiers who spoke Greek."
To clarify.
Your reference must have been some other group. I am unlikely to know everything about H.F.James, but he may have told me that he was a gunner in the A.I.F (Aust. Infantry Forces) and was part of an Australian force sent to Crete early in WW2. When the German army invaded they overwhelmed the Australians. James was captured and assigned by the German army to a burial detail. While doing this work he claimed that he became an atheist. They had to go through the belongings of the dead and he said you would see the same things - photo's of their family, religious trinkets etc, no matter which army they belonged to. How could a loving god allow all this he claimed to have reasoned.
He escaped the German camp and lived in the hills. Often hungry, as there was little food available. He learnt to speak the local Greek so as to beg for food,
He was able to escape Crete on a British submarine ( likely part of the group you spoke of- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ill_Met_by_Moonlight 0 ). He arrived back in Australia with a bad case of PTSD, and some years later became a JW.
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fulltimestudent
It is likely that few with a JW background would know that Jewish culture in the time Jesus lived was thoroughly affected by Greek/Hellenic culture and Ideas. So here's a link (and an extract from a recent article by the study grou that calls itself the Biblical Archaeology Society.
A recent article discussed this topic:
From ancient Greece to ancient Judea: The Hellenization of Jewish culture
Let BAS show you how Greek culture influenced the people and worship of Jesus’ time
How and why and to what extent Greek culture was absorbed into the ancient Jewish world is not always clear, but that it was is undeniable. From the time of Alexander the Great in the fourth century B.C.E., Jews lived in a world in which Greek culture carried a certain prestige and offered a route to political influence.
Hellenistic and Roman-era art from the Biblical world shines a spotlight on Judean identity and cultural influences during a formative period in the region’s history. From Hercules as trendy Israeli bathhouse décor to mosaics celebrating Helios, the sun god, in ancient synagogues, Greek culture permeated Judea.
It is even thought by some scholars that Jews in ancient times considered Helios a minor deity to whom they could offer prayers!
Scholars are now weaving together evidence from archaeological sites and early Christian texts. Notes Lucille A. Roussin,
A connection between the Jewish worship of angels and astrology is attested by many early Christian writers. According to the Preachings of Peter, referred to by Clement of Alexandria, the Jews, “thinking that they only know God, do not know him, adoring as they do angels and archangels, the months and the moon
Origen writes in Contra Celsius that "what is astonishing about the Jews is that they adore the sky and the angels that inhabit it.”
Cultures collide, and then combine
Unsurprisingly, while there is ample evidence of the influence of Greek culture on Jewish culture, there was also resistance, at least for a while. Human nature explains the desire of the Jewish elite to seek power and status by adopting elements of the dominant culture. And piety explains the blowback from some Jews, such as Judas Maccabee, who, of course, revolted against Hellenized Jewish rulers and purified their “defiled” Temple in an act that is still celebrated in the Jewish festival of Hanukkah.
Yet as Professor Martin Goodman notes, “Outside of Jerusalem and Judea, Jews rarely treated Greek culture as a threat to their Judaism.” The lovely zodiac mosaic floors of Palestinian synagogues of the fourth to sixth centuries C.E., so similar to those at pagan sites, attest to that.
This artistic expression tells us that Jews had simply adopted those Hellenistic features that complemented their own worship, including Hebrew labels on the zodiac signs, and—according to some scholars—used images of the Greek sun god Helios to represent Yahweh, who has no form and cannot be represented in art, but is described in Jewish texts from Biblical times as fiery like the sun.
Because the centuries immediately surrounding Jesus’ birth were such a formative period in Judean history, studying the Hellenization of Jewish and early Christian culture during this period is crucial in understanding Biblical history.
And all of it is revealed in the art and architecture examined in a very special collection of articles from the Biblical Archaeology Society, Ancient Art of the Biblical World.
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fulltimestudent
I havn't continued the above discussion, as it is likely to get bogged down in logical semantics. It's difficult for Christians to accept that Jesus who had (in both orthodoxy and JWism) a pre-human existence could ever be affected by an alien culture.
Bur, since all we know about 'Jesus' was written by someone else those writers, at leasts, could have been culturally influenced by Greek ideas.
Let me give a small example. In Luke 24 it is claimed that the resurrected Jesus appeared in a (different) human form and the disciples only recognised him after he blessed and broke some bread (in a manner that he-Jesus- had always done) verses 30 to 31 tells that story.
Quote: "30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”" Luke 24: 30-32 NIV
Unless we knew something about Greek culture the time, we'd likely miss the point. Robin Lane Fox, in his book 'Pagans and Christians in the Mediterranean World.' and Ch. 4 titled 'Seeing the gods' explains that in Greek culture it was believed that the gods would often appear to humans in human form but not recogniswable as a god. The human visited by such a divinity would only recognise the god through some small sign by which the god would reveal himself,
We can therefore imagine that the author of Luke's gospel knew 'Greek' culture and could his 'Jesus' story using memes that were known if Greek (not Jewish) culture.
Another of the text books used in a Study Unit in which I enrolled at Macquarie U was, 'Introducing the New Testament: Its Literature and Theology,' ( Achtemeier, Green and Thompson - Eerdmans 2001). In the first chapter, the authors discuss the influence of Hellenism on Jewish society and expresses the claim that both Jesus and his disciples would have been able to communicate in Greek, even if they spoke Aramaic.
We will not (short of the discovery of some unknown document that describes Jesus more clearly) ever know whether Jesus could speak Greek, or that he addresses the groups that heard him in Greek, But it must be clear that if Jesus was just a human (and had no pre-existence) then he also grew up in a world in which the culture of the Greeks prevailed.
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fulltimestudent
scholar: "Hellenism was a major cultural influence on Jewish Society at the time of Jesus but it is somewhat of a stretch to classify Jesus as 'Hellenized Jew' for there is simply no evidence for such a label."
I understand your reasoning, but if Jewish Society (in general) was 'hellenised,' then most Jews were hellenised culturally. For another example of this process we could cross to what is now Afghanistan and find examples of Buddhism being Hellenised. The people who produced the sculptures etc that are still extant were themselves deeply affected by Greek culture.
And an example of the process can be found in 1 Maccabees 1:13-1513
"some from among the people promptly went to the king, and he authorized them to introduce the ordinances of the Gentiles.
Thereupon they built a gymnasium* in Jerusalem according to the Gentile custom.15
They disguised their circumcision and abandoned the holy covenant; they allied themselves with the Gentiles and sold themselves to wrongdoing."and in 2 Maccabees 4: 12-1612
" With perverse delight he established a gymnasium* at the very foot of the citadel, where he induced the noblest young men to wear the Greek hat.13
The craze for Hellenism and the adoption of foreign customs reached such a pitch, through the outrageous wickedness of Jason, the renegade and would-be high priest,14that the priests no longer cared about the service of the altar. Disdaining the temple and neglecting the sacrifices, they hastened, at the signal for the games, to take part in the unlawful exercises at the arena.15
What their ancestors had regarded as honors they despised; what the Greeks esteemed as glory they prized highly."Even the priests wanted to spend time in the Greek gymnasium, wrestling naked with other young men (which is why they attempted to stretch their foreskins because in the Greek culture of that time, showing the glans of the penis was shameful).
Of course, some did not go along with them, which is what the Maccabees books are about.
So what about Jesus, I take your point, its a stretch because we do not know where Jesus stood on these matters.
All our knowledge of Jesus is second hand. Written years later, maybe 20 years in the case of Matthew, Mark and Luke and maybe 70 years later in the case of John.
Even if the gospel writers were acting as editors, they had control over what they included or excluded,
So its difficult to have clarity, isnt it?
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fulltimestudent
Thank you scholar for clarifying that point. But its an interesting coincidence that three JWs (albeit one of them, at least is an exJW) should all have attended MU and have known Chris Forbes, Maybe there are many more JWs attending Universities, in spite of the official discouragement. In the past I knew of only one, the brother of ex-jw Martin Yeomans. Last I heard of him he was a lecturer at New England University (NSW) and an elder in the local congregation.
As to Farleigh James, he became a witness in Sydney after being trained as an Opera singer by Eugene Goosens, who years ago won notoriety in Sydney for being stopped by customs at Sydney airport for having a suitcase full of didldos that he said were for his lesbian friends.
But back to James, In WW2 he was captured on Crete by the German army and imprisoned in a concentration camp. During the early period of imprisonment he became an atheist. He later escaped and lived in the hills for a few years until rescued from the island by a British submarine, While living in the hills he learned Greek (modern, of course). Back in Sydney he and his wife became JWs somewhere in the early 1950s. He later served in New Caledonia where there was one helluva row in the congregation. Later be became a CO in many areas of Australia. An interesting guy!
Finally, since you make some claims to scholarship, do you agree that Judaism in Jesus day was increasingly "Hellenised" and Jesus therefore was a Hellenised Jew?
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fulltimestudent
scholar to fulltime student
Quote: "Yes I am acquainted with Chris Forbes, Edwin Judge and Stuart Pickering, John Lee and Greg Horsley and others all have or had an association with Macquarrie University which as an institution is at the forefront in NT Greek scholarship.
I understand that Forbes is an Anglican"
Somewhat off topic, but of some interest to all.
1. It seems likely that you are located in the Sydney region. So was I, from the early 1950's until I was chucked out in the late 1980's. So I've seen the branch oversight change from T.Jarascz to eventually V.Mouritz. And from a few congs in Sydney to many.
I knew a lot of people over the years and the only guy I knew that studied externally (i.e. non JW stuff) was a Farleigh James (Who had some sort of recognition as a WT writer). James, could read greek (to an extent anyway) and is now dead so that cant be you.
But even among the JWs if someone has gone to the trouble of doing what you claim it would be known among some of the key people in their city.
But I never heard of someone like you in Sydney. So, apparently you've come along after I was chucked out.
2, During the course of my studies at MU (and Sydney U) I once was asked by Chris Forbes as the why I was interested in NT/Christian origins studies. I then told him of my JW origins and being chucked out.
He then told me of another JW (apparently still in) that was studying similar stuff, and that this person was having some emotional problems. He asked if I would talk to them? I would've if that person was told that I was DFed. Apparently this person did no want to speak with me.
Could you have been that person?
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fulltimestudent
Well, I'm not sure who's going to feel what about my comments, so I have to explain a little.
In my old age I had a brainstorm and wanted to study Chinese history. I knew nothing about academic procedures. but applied to two universities, Sydney and Macquarie. Never heard from Sydney, but Macquarie offered me a place. That was good in one way, as the then head of the Chinese department (Prof. Daniel Kane) had lived and worked in China and was a source of first hand explanations.
But the choice of Chinese subjects at MU was very limited and without doing language I could not get a degree. (Didn't want to do Chns L as I figured I'd likely die before speaking Chns fluently). Danny Kane suggested that the Ancient History dept. also taught a lot of Chinese/Asian topics, so I could maybe achieve what I wanted by broadening my vision a little. So I did that.and changed my focus to China in its Asian setting.
Of course, in AH I also found a lot of West Asian topics (NB. The main world religions are Asian with Asian thought patterns) which was fortuitous as I was able to include some covering Judaism/ Xtianity etc. I wont list them all but included the Dead Sea Scrolls . Church and State in late Antiquity. The NT in its Times. Early Christian literature in its times.
I also did another 6 study units at Sydney U. (Sydney U is much better for China Studies ) So I finished up with a major in Ancient History (All with and Asian focus and a minor in Japanese Studies. But I sure know a lot more about Asia than I did 10 years ago.
And after all that, this is the point I want to make.
A lecturer for some of those study units was a Dr Chris Forbes. I asked him one day, have you ever come across the NWT? He said he had read some of it, so I asked what he thought of it? He replied that he thought it was a "lively" translation. So I asked what about John 1:1? He responded that too often in NT translation, the original text can have more than one meaning, a problem that makes translation difficult. (a problem, I think that makes YHWH look a bit of a numbskull).
Dr Forbes is the member of a conventional church (not sure which one) and whether or not he believes in the trinity i don't know. Although, of course, I assumed he is Jesus oriented and not YHWH oriented, but that's just how I saw him.
In spite off that anecdote, I do not think that MU's staff generally would not be anti-trinitarian.
So make what you want from my story.
Footnotes:
1. MU's Ancient History department was strongly influenced by one E.A. Judge, certainly a conventional Christian.
2. The AH department held up my degree, because I did not do one subject (focusing on Rome) that they held to be essential. However, in the end they agreed to my degree.