Posts by fulltimestudent

49

A deeper examination of The New World Translation

by Terry in

shorturl.at/ouakr.

fulltimestudent

scholar: "Hellenism was a major cultural influence on Jewish Society at the time of Jesus but it is somewhat of a stretch to classify Jesus as 'Hellenized Jew' for there is simply no evidence for such a label."

I understand your reasoning, but if Jewish Society (in general) was 'hellenised,' then most Jews were hellenised culturally. For another example of this process we could cross to what is now Afghanistan and find examples of Buddhism being Hellenised. The people who produced the sculptures etc that are still extant were themselves deeply affected by Greek culture.

And an example of the process can be found in 1 Maccabees 1:13-1513

"some from among the people promptly went to the king, and he authorized them to introduce the ordinances of the Gentiles.
Thereupon they built a gymnasium * in Jerusalem according to the Gentile custom.15
They disguised their circumcision and abandoned the holy covenant; they allied themselves with the Gentiles and sold themselves to wrongdoing."

and in 2 Maccabees 4: 12-1612

" With perverse delight he established a gymnasium* at the very foot of the citadel, where he induced the noblest young men to wear the Greek hat.13
The craze for Hellenism and the adoption of foreign customs reached such a pitch, through the outrageous wickedness of Jason, the renegade and would-be high priest,14that the priests no longer cared about the service of the altar. Disdaining the temple and neglecting the sacrifices, they hastened, at the signal for the games, to take part in the unlawful exercises at the arena.15
What their ancestors had regarded as honors they despised; what the Greeks esteemed as glory they prized highly."

Even the priests wanted to spend time in the Greek gymnasium, wrestling naked with other young men (which is why they attempted to stretch their foreskins because in the Greek culture of that time, showing the glans of the penis was shameful).

Of course, some did not go along with them, which is what the Maccabees books are about.

So what about Jesus, I take your point, its a stretch because we do not know where Jesus stood on these matters.

All our knowledge of Jesus is second hand. Written years later, maybe 20 years in the case of Matthew, Mark and Luke and maybe 70 years later in the case of John.

Even if the gospel writers were acting as editors, they had control over what they included or excluded,

So its difficult to have clarity, isnt it?

16

49

A deeper examination of The New World Translation

by Terry in

shorturl.at/ouakr.

fulltimestudent

Thank you scholar for clarifying that point. But its an interesting coincidence that three JWs (albeit one of them, at least is an exJW) should all have attended MU and have known Chris Forbes, Maybe there are many more JWs attending Universities, in spite of the official discouragement. In the past I knew of only one, the brother of ex-jw Martin Yeomans. Last I heard of him he was a lecturer at New England University (NSW) and an elder in the local congregation.

As to Farleigh James, he became a witness in Sydney after being trained as an Opera singer by Eugene Goosens, who years ago won notoriety in Sydney for being stopped by customs at Sydney airport for having a suitcase full of didldos that he said were for his lesbian friends.

But back to James, In WW2 he was captured on Crete by the German army and imprisoned in a concentration camp. During the early period of imprisonment he became an atheist. He later escaped and lived in the hills for a few years until rescued from the island by a British submarine, While living in the hills he learned Greek (modern, of course). Back in Sydney he and his wife became JWs somewhere in the early 1950s. He later served in New Caledonia where there was one helluva row in the congregation. Later be became a CO in many areas of Australia. An interesting guy!

Finally, since you make some claims to scholarship, do you agree that Judaism in Jesus day was increasingly "Hellenised" and Jesus therefore was a Hellenised Jew?

49

A deeper examination of The New World Translation

by Terry in

shorturl.at/ouakr.

fulltimestudent

scholar to fulltime student

Quote: "Yes I am acquainted with Chris Forbes, Edwin Judge and Stuart Pickering, John Lee and Greg Horsley and others all have or had an association with Macquarrie University which as an institution is at the forefront in NT Greek scholarship.

I understand that Forbes is an Anglican"

Somewhat off topic, but of some interest to all.

1. It seems likely that you are located in the Sydney region. So was I, from the early 1950's until I was chucked out in the late 1980's. So I've seen the branch oversight change from T.Jarascz to eventually V.Mouritz. And from a few congs in Sydney to many.

I knew a lot of people over the years and the only guy I knew that studied externally (i.e. non JW stuff) was a Farleigh James (Who had some sort of recognition as a WT writer). James, could read greek (to an extent anyway) and is now dead so that cant be you.

But even among the JWs if someone has gone to the trouble of doing what you claim it would be known among some of the key people in their city.

But I never heard of someone like you in Sydney. So, apparently you've come along after I was chucked out.

2, During the course of my studies at MU (and Sydney U) I once was asked by Chris Forbes as the why I was interested in NT/Christian origins studies. I then told him of my JW origins and being chucked out.

He then told me of another JW (apparently still in) that was studying similar stuff, and that this person was having some emotional problems. He asked if I would talk to them? I would've if that person was told that I was DFed. Apparently this person did no want to speak with me.

Could you have been that person?

49

A deeper examination of The New World Translation

by Terry in

shorturl.at/ouakr.

fulltimestudent

Well, I'm not sure who's going to feel what about my comments, so I have to explain a little.

In my old age I had a brainstorm and wanted to study Chinese history. I knew nothing about academic procedures. but applied to two universities, Sydney and Macquarie. Never heard from Sydney, but Macquarie offered me a place. That was good in one way, as the then head of the Chinese department (Prof. Daniel Kane) had lived and worked in China and was a source of first hand explanations.

But the choice of Chinese subjects at MU was very limited and without doing language I could not get a degree. (Didn't want to do Chns L as I figured I'd likely die before speaking Chns fluently). Danny Kane suggested that the Ancient History dept. also taught a lot of Chinese/Asian topics, so I could maybe achieve what I wanted by broadening my vision a little. So I did that.and changed my focus to China in its Asian setting.

Of course, in AH I also found a lot of West Asian topics (NB. The main world religions are Asian with Asian thought patterns) which was fortuitous as I was able to include some covering Judaism/ Xtianity etc. I wont list them all but included the Dead Sea Scrolls . Church and State in late Antiquity. The NT in its Times. Early Christian literature in its times.

I also did another 6 study units at Sydney U. (Sydney U is much better for China Studies ) So I finished up with a major in Ancient History (All with and Asian focus and a minor in Japanese Studies. But I sure know a lot more about Asia than I did 10 years ago.

And after all that, this is the point I want to make.

A lecturer for some of those study units was a Dr Chris Forbes. I asked him one day, have you ever come across the NWT? He said he had read some of it, so I asked what he thought of it? He replied that he thought it was a "lively" translation. So I asked what about John 1:1? He responded that too often in NT translation, the original text can have more than one meaning, a problem that makes translation difficult. (a problem, I think that makes YHWH look a bit of a numbskull).

Dr Forbes is the member of a conventional church (not sure which one) and whether or not he believes in the trinity i don't know. Although, of course, I assumed he is Jesus oriented and not YHWH oriented, but that's just how I saw him.

In spite off that anecdote, I do not think that MU's staff generally would not be anti-trinitarian.

So make what you want from my story.

Footnotes:

1. MU's Ancient History department was strongly influenced by one E.A. Judge, certainly a conventional Christian.

2. The AH department held up my degree, because I did not do one subject (focusing on Rome) that they held to be essential. However, in the end they agreed to my degree.

7

Modern Medical Science Heals Blindness Better than Jesus

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i posted some time back that i was having vision difficulties.

at sydney eye hospital it was determined that i had no other serious eye problems except a growing cataract.. i was referred to another hospital for a removal of the natural lens in my left eye and its replacement by an artificial lens,.

had that operation a week ago - no problems except my iris did not expand enough to permit the lens procedure, so they had to use hooks to expand it, turning a less than 30 minute operation into a 90 minute procedure.. all very professional and first class treatment.

fulltimestudent

I posted some time back that I was having vision difficulties. At Sydney Eye Hospital it was determined that I had no other serious eye problems except a growing cataract.

I was referred to another hospital for a removal of the natural lens in my left eye and its replacement by an artificial lens,

Had that operation a week ago - no problems except my iris did not expand enough to permit the lens procedure, so they had to use hooks to expand it, turning a less than 30 minute operation into a 90 minute procedure.

All very professional and first class treatment. Can now see clearly with my left eye maybe there is better vision than I've had for a long time.

I reflected that Jesus healed on one person on that day, while the hospital I attended replaced the lens for 9 people who had this problem,

And best of all for me, no charge at all because its covered by Australia's socialised medical system.

37

Just realized they changed maybe the most important scripture in the bible.

by Crazyguy in

i just read the scripture then went and checked in thier older bible and it read the same so i check the greek interlinear and yes they changed john 3:16 .

the verse reads "all who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life" the cult version says "exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".. so not only do they say one must exercise faith meaning having to work for it but also they changed should not perish but having everlasting life to might not be destroyed again making a caveat where one does not exist.

just to add to the point verse 18 in both bibles says the one having faith is not judged, totally blowing up thier version of 16 but of course they change 18 to say exercising faith too but it makes little difference, since it says not judged.

fulltimestudent

As a jw, I thought of 'faith' as something active, not static and I think many contemporary christian commentators have the same perspective.

These days I do not give a rat's arse about the bible, the Jws, or the NWT. And, I care even less whether the word 'exercising' in this context is acceptable.

But it is important to know that translating something from an ancient language is very difficult. But translation from ancient documents is only part of the story, There is also the problem of early christian's translating from one language to another, It is now appreciated that Greek (or the form of Greek, then in common use) was in common use along with Aramaic, However there is even more complexity in the strong likelihood that there were also local dialects. Did Jesus speak in his local dialect? If so we could assume that early believer's who heard Jesus speak may have had to translate the words and grammatical patterns into another language three times (local dialect>aramaic>greek), We can understand how difficult that could be! (and we have not even touched on the problem of memory. If the book of John was written in the late first century (as the early church thought) then how the hell did John remember the actual words/grammatical forms that Jesus used. Believers will claim that the HS corrected John's faulty memory,

But its much easier to think that John embroidered his memory and used his imagination quite freely. In doing so, he would have bee following a common practise in Roman times, (e.g. the long speeches in the (secular) history of Ammianus Marcellinus (born c. 330, died c. 391 – 400) ,

So what am I getting at?

Translators often compare usage and thoughts to try and make their translation as accurate as possible. So if you wanted to compare thoughts on faith where would you go.

I suggest that the relatively short letter of James is a good p[ace to start, Why? OK! James does not get much emphasis in modern christianity, but he was likely a brother of Jesus, and he presided" over the all-important Jerusalem church; It is interesting to me that a university text book (Introducing the New Testament by Paul J. Achtemeier et al) says of the Letter of James. Quote: "it is a book that sounds much like Jesus and often speaks in tones uncannily reminiscent of Jesus own teaching."

As someone has already point out (in this chronologically draqged out discussion) James 2:4 says something similar to the word 'exercise.', To use different words, but with the same meaning, conviction (faith) and behaviour (works) are inseparable. Or, again, faith affects one's life. So is 'exercising faith,' really such a wrong expression.

^ And, it seems, leadership of the Jerusalem congregation stayed in the family until the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem.

13

A question for Aussies about NBN and streaming / network dropout problems.

by smiddy3 in

has any fellow australians here had problems with the internet dropping out either with their computers or streaming devices on the tv`s etc.. since the nbn took over we have had nothing but trouble with interruption of services on the tv and computer.. i would say it drops out at least 10 times or more in any one day.. it`s a bloody pain in the ass.. a technician came out the other day and supposedly fixed the problem that they knew about by the way (why didn`t they do something about it then instead of waiting for me to make a complaint ?).

the technician went away saying he had fixed the problem ,but lo and behold within a couple of hours we still had the same problems that have continued over this weekend.. i`m just curious if any other australians are having similar problems as i have outlined..

fulltimestudent

Tantalon. - Check this out, https://www.telstra.com.au/internet/mobile-broadband

That's over a 4G network, and when you consider how much faster it will be in the future when we get 5G (that's when D.Trump stops trying to bugger China for not letting him build a Trump tower on the Forbidden Palace site).

I'm looking at it now as maybe instead of a smartphone data service AND my internet connection, it may be cheaper to just have one connection for both smartphone and Computer.

Or, have I got it all wrong (first sign of dotage-grin)

13

A question for Aussies about NBN and streaming / network dropout problems.

by smiddy3 in

has any fellow australians here had problems with the internet dropping out either with their computers or streaming devices on the tv`s etc.. since the nbn took over we have had nothing but trouble with interruption of services on the tv and computer.. i would say it drops out at least 10 times or more in any one day.. it`s a bloody pain in the ass.. a technician came out the other day and supposedly fixed the problem that they knew about by the way (why didn`t they do something about it then instead of waiting for me to make a complaint ?).

the technician went away saying he had fixed the problem ,but lo and behold within a couple of hours we still had the same problems that have continued over this weekend.. i`m just curious if any other australians are having similar problems as i have outlined..

fulltimestudent

Sorry to have to report no problems. Cant say NBN is any better than my old ADSL connection. That was via iprimus (who still manage my connection to the NBN).

Hope you guys get your problems fixed soon,

And, for those who report their telephone line drops out also, I was told by the NBN installers (in my Unit block) that I would no longer have a telephone line connection, but that calls to my (no longer a fixed telephone line) number would come over the NBN connection

,,, And more, I'm quite sure that the original fibre to your computer connection would have been superior. But Tony Abbott ( you know him, he's the guy that believed that YHWH/Jesus would never allow climate change to cause us any hassles - anyway YHWH/Jesus buggered him up at the last election) went bananas about the cost, and wanted to reduce the cost so he could build more submarines or something. And, of course, the libs had to find something for Malcolm T to do after Tony A pushed him out of the party leadership, so they put him in charge of the NBN roll-out. Big mistake! Malcoln did a Law degree at uni, and you know what, lawyers are trained to yack on and on, but they never DO anything. That's why our poor bloody country is going down hill., as 25% of MPs have a legal background.

12

New Study Claims Children Raised Without Religious Indoctrination show More Empathy and Kindess

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

there is a controversial claim in this article, quite different to what christians usually claim.

it interested me, as i often wondered how as jws we could claim to be loving and kind (and certainly some were) yet, be quite callous about those who rejected our message.. you can find this story on this research at:.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/?fbclid=iwar3zhgjsc_valeb8csd4usq9hyu34goemdj6s3yllnmsdvoy9pnkpzojyz0.

fulltimestudent

I guess I was a little more attuned to the topic of this survey because of a Rugby Union controversy in Australia, A player named Israel Folau, who is a zealous member of the Assemblies of God Church, got into trouble over his public comments;.

He has been sacked from playing RU because of making public statements about various 'sins' on social media. That has raised a lot discussion about the rights and wrongs of the RY managements decision. Folau claims he is not intolerant, but that is only sharing his 'god's views and that essentially he is being 'loving' in doing so. It could be pointed out that the same actions may have led to his being sacked from most large Aussie businesses.

But isn't Folaui's position similar to the social research conducted at the University of Chicago. Imagine, for a moment that Folau is right in his beliefs, If so he will die one day and go to heaven, from where he may observe the torments many of his former RU comrades are undergoing. Will he recoil from the sight of such vicious tortures, saying, " I warned them," and, then turn away, unable to watch the torments his former friends were undergoing.

Surely such a belief, will not make a person kinder? But maybe some can manage that situation. I once knew a circuit overseer, who had a personal belief (that he seldom talked about) the YHWH?JESUS would somehow save only the incorrigibly wicked, Dont aske me howq he managed to juggle that one and stay a JW.

12

New Study Claims Children Raised Without Religious Indoctrination show More Empathy and Kindess

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

there is a controversial claim in this article, quite different to what christians usually claim.

it interested me, as i often wondered how as jws we could claim to be loving and kind (and certainly some were) yet, be quite callous about those who rejected our message.. you can find this story on this research at:.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/?fbclid=iwar3zhgjsc_valeb8csd4usq9hyu34goemdj6s3yllnmsdvoy9pnkpzojyz0.

fulltimestudent

There is a controversial claim in this article, quite different to what christians usually claim. It interested me, as I often wondered how as jws we could claim to be loving and kind (and certainly some were) yet, be quite callous about those who rejected our message.. You can find this story on this research at:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2015/11/study-finds-that-children-raised-without-religion-show-more-empathy-and-kindness/?fbclid=IwAR3ZHGjsc_ValEb8Csd4uSQ9HYu34GOeMdj6S3YlLNmsDVoY9pNKpZOjYZ0

If interested read it for yourself. The study found that children raised in non-religious households are kinder and more altruistic than those raised with religion. The study looked at 1170 children between the ages of 5 and 12 years in six countries (Canada, China, Jordan, Turkey, USA, and South Africa) and examined “the religiousness of their household, and parent-reported child empathy and sensitivity to justice."

The study was conducted at the University of Chicago and published in the academic journal, 'Current Biology.'

Before your fully accept the findings however, you may like to read some criticism of the research. Its a good example of the so-called 'scientific method' in operation. There will likely be more studies and we will see what the final findings demonstrate.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/accordingtomatthew/2015/11/no-atheist-kids-are-not-more-altruistic-than-religious-kids/

I thought about both articles, and attempted to draw my own conclusion, which was that teaching kindness, love etc is fine. But, the problem likely arises because christians want to add a rider i.e. divine punishment. if you do not worship their mythical divinity then you will A. Be tortured forever in hell, B. Die and never get a resurrection. C. God will kill you at Armageddon. Faced with these modifers, who can blame kids for becoming less loving and less kind, at least to some.