Posts by fulltimestudent

6

A find on Fred Franz's "system of things"

by careful in

i was looking at the footnote in the 3rd ed.

of weymouth's nt (1912) on an unrelated topic and i happened on the phrase "the passing away of the present system of things" (p. 659 n. 2).

when i was in, i remember reading that the nwt "committee" (= f. franz) came up with that "system of things" rendering of the greek aion from john parkhurst's very old lexicon.

fulltimestudent

slimboyfat : ... Franz was eclectic in the places he gathered NWT idiosyncrasies. When I've got time I'm going to look at WT literature from the 1940s and 1950s to look for references to Weymouth, explanations of this "system of things" phrase, and the background of NWT peculiarities generally.

Here's an interesting background for another closely related term. As I've made clear in many past posts, the central focus of my uni studies has been Chinese history, and in examining the influences on the Chinese revolutionaries of the first half of the twentieth century, I found this possible link to Joe Rutherford and his (possibly) last book, likely ghost written by our beloved brother Freddy, named "The New World." (published 1942). (That's the year Joe R. died, although he may not have been mentally competent in his last year.

)

( https://www.amazon.com/World-Watchtower-Bible-Tract-Society/dp/B000J3L0ZW )

When I got involved with YHWH's New World Society, a common term in use in the early 1950s, we often used that term in preaching, meetings and prayers. Even assemblies were themed with the term.

So it was with a certain mental jolt that a few years ago ,I saw a reference in a text book on China, by a certain J.D.Spence, "The Search for Modern China'" (P.257). He referred to a group called "the Anarchist New World Society,"

This 'anarchist new world society,' had been founded in Paris,
by "a group of Chinese anarchists who established the Xin shijie she (New World Society), which started the publication of the journal Xin Shiji (New Era) in 1907"

It may seem difficult to link that group with old Joe Rutherford. But I suggest a possible link. The WT leadership under Russell (of which Rutherford became a part) spent a lot of time in Europe (including Paris), so it is quite possible that in the era of intellectual ferment following the collapse of so many empires that the WT group may have heard of that Chinese group.

Both Russell and Rutherford seemed to well aware of political trends and when we examine Rutherford's books in the 1920s and 1930s, ( like Riches, Vindication 1, 2 and 3 and Light 1 and 2) there is a strong radical influence noticeable. You could almost call that influence anarchist. Check the illustrations in those books, most include the same three figures, bloated capitalists, dissolute religious figures and slimy politicians, all in lurid color, with all those figures often
manipulated by a threatening cartoonish devil and a hope of a better future when greedy capitalists, priests and politicians have been destroyed.

According to one commentary, that Chinese group in Paris had one difference to the standard European Anarchist movements.

Although the European anarchist movement advocated social transformation, the Chinese anarchists stand out because of the primary importance they placed on the abolition of the old culture.

European anarchists reserved some of their harshest critiques for
Christianity, seen as one of the three pillars of authoritarianism,
along with capitalism and the state. Chinese anarchists declared
all-out war against Confucian culture, which they saw as a form of
social control roughly analogous to western Christianity in its
hegemonic penetration of society and proscription of social norms.

So was old Joe Rutherford influenced by a group of Chinese dissidents? Impossible to prove beyond doubt, but an interesting possibility.

6

A find on Fred Franz's "system of things"

by careful in

i was looking at the footnote in the 3rd ed.

of weymouth's nt (1912) on an unrelated topic and i happened on the phrase "the passing away of the present system of things" (p. 659 n. 2).

when i was in, i remember reading that the nwt "committee" (= f. franz) came up with that "system of things" rendering of the greek aion from john parkhurst's very old lexicon.

fulltimestudent

The translation of αἰών ( as in Matthew 24:3 ) may be difficult.

As I'm sure most of us know, a common alternative rendering in many bibles, is "world". But some translations use "Age", in the sense of "epoch." Which may more closely match the meaning of αἰών.

I would not take the extreme position of saying that everything connected with the JWs is bad! bad! bad!

Interestingly, I had a conversation with one of my lecturers on day ( A committed Christian) and in passing he commented that he considered the NWT a very "lively translation."

I think that it is with great difficulty that some ancient Greek words are translated into English.

-----------------------------------

You will of course find academics who have differents opinions about the NWT.

( for anyone interested in the credentials of Dr Chris Forbes, you can find his Macquarie University bio at:

https://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/department_of_ancient_history/staff/dr_chris_forbes/

11

The Real Ark of the Covenant May Have Housed Pagan Gods - Haaretz

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

according to the bible, the biblical ark of the covenant contained the ten commandments tablets, but some israeli archaeologists have a different view.. haaretz media site publishes the story:.

the real ark of the covenant may have housed pagan gods.

the holy ark was likely kept in jerusalem for much less time than the bible tells us.

fulltimestudent

David_Jay: Many Jews, like myself, believe they have a claim to the land as well and all should live in harmony there.

Yes, but that's not quite what has happened, is it?

Do you think there is a case to call the Palestinian/Jewish friction, fratricide?

Think about it. The Jews were eventually driven out of Jerusalem by the Roman army, but continued to live in the surrounding areas. And then came Islam - I think there is a very strong possibility that many people who may have worshipped as Jews, switched to Islam, some perhaps by force, but not necessarily by force. Islam did not always use force to convert. The population of the land became Muslim with the possible exception of brief periods during the Crusades.

Is there any evidence? Consider the evidence provided by genetics:

Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots
"Confronted by the violence sweeping over Israel, it can be easy to overlook the things that Jews and Palestinians share: a deep attachment to the same sliver of contested land, ... a common tradition of descent from the patriarch Abraham, and, as scientific research shows - a common genetic ancestry, as well.
Ostrer’s research on “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era,” published in The American Journal of Human Genetics, sampled 652,000 gene variants from each of 237 unrelated individuals from seven Jewish populations: Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi. These sequences were then compared with reference samples from non-Jews drawn from The Human Genome Diversity Project, a global database of genetic information gathered from populations across the world.
Each of the Jewish populations, they found, “formed its own distinctive cluster,” indicating their shared ancestry and “relative genetic isolation.”
... Ostrer’s team also identified two major groups of Jews: Middle Eastern Jews (Iranian and Iraqi) and European/Syrian Jews. The split between these two groups of Jews occurred some 2,500 years ago.
... In addition, a “compact cluster” of Yemenite Jews “overlaps primarily with Bedouins but also with Saudi individuals.” Ethiopian and Indian Jews are more closely related to their own neighboring, host populations.
... Are these genetic ties between Jews, Palestinians, Bedouin, and Druze important in a contemporary context? “It doesn’t matter to me personally,” Skorecki says, “since I think that global human identity supersedes all other considerations.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/science/1.681385

-------------------------------------------------------------

David_Jay: Except for some fundamentalist Orthodox, most Jews believe the claims of the Bible to the land of Israel somewhat symbolic to stand for each human having a claim to a place on earth to call home.

A pious hope, but one I agree with, except, does it really have to be based on developed ancestry.

Consider what is currently happening in Myanmar, where (maybe some of) Myanmar's Buddhists began a genocidal campaign against the country's Moslem Rohingyas. A persecution now being continued by Myanmar's Army.

It shares an ethnic connection with the Jewish problem also, in that Imperial Britain is at the root of both problems. In the case of Burma (as the Brits called it) they defined the border between India and contemporary Myanmar. I cannot argue that they purposely included unlike groups, although it is a common difficulty in many former British colonies, but there is an argument that the Brits liked to play different groups against each other, hoping that it would be easier to maintain control of the area.

11

The Real Ark of the Covenant May Have Housed Pagan Gods - Haaretz

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

according to the bible, the biblical ark of the covenant contained the ten commandments tablets, but some israeli archaeologists have a different view.. haaretz media site publishes the story:.

the real ark of the covenant may have housed pagan gods.

the holy ark was likely kept in jerusalem for much less time than the bible tells us.

fulltimestudent

According to the Bible, the biblical Ark of the Covenant contained the Ten Commandments Tablets, but some Israeli archaeologists have a different view.

Haaretz media site publishes the story:

The Real Ark of the Covenant May Have Housed Pagan Gods

The holy ark was likely kept in Jerusalem for much less time than the Bible tells us. And it may have contained something other than the Ten Commandments.

Quote: "These biblical stories may all contain echoes of the ancient cults connected to the ark. It is difficult to completely untangle the many layers of history and myth contained in this story thousands of years later, but a broader message does emerge.

The Bible appears to describe the ancient Israelites, from Moses onward, as staunch monotheists who sometimes err towards paganism and are punished for their sins by God. But this picture may be the result of mostly self-serving propaganda by the priests and scribes of the late monarchic or post-exilic periods.

The reality emerging today from the combined work of biblical scholars and archeologists is much more complex and diverse. It indicates that Judaism as we know it today evolved slowly and organically, incorporating a variety of influences and religious traditions from the mosaic of cultures that lived side by side in the region."

1

A Reminder of the Time When Jerusalem was a Christian city.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.. why?

we usually think of jerusalem as a jewish city, but following the first roman war against the jews and the destruction of the city in 70 ce, the city lay in ruins, as described by josephus:.

"jerusalem ... was so thoroughly razed to the ground by those that demolished it to its foundations, that nothing was left that could ever persuade visitors that it had once been a place of habitation.".

fulltimestudent

Apologies for this duplication. I tried to post this yesterday, but I thought I'd stuffed up somehow, as it did not appear.

That's why there's another effort to tell the story today, so best to look at the other thread.

1

A Reminder of the Time When Jerusalem was a Christian city.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.. why?

we usually think of jerusalem as a jewish city, but following the first roman war against the jews and the destruction of the city in 70 ce, the city lay in ruins, as described by josephus:.

"jerusalem ... was so thoroughly razed to the ground by those that demolished it to its foundations, that nothing was left that could ever persuade visitors that it had once been a place of habitation.".

fulltimestudent

Construction workers in Jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when Jerusalem could be described as a Christian city.

Why? We usually think of Jerusalem as a Jewish city, but following the first Roman war against the Jews and the destruction of the city in 70 CE, the city lay in ruins, as described by Josephus:

"Jerusalem ... was so thoroughly razed to the ground by those that demolished it to its foundations, that nothing was left that could ever persuade visitors that it had once been a place of habitation."

Then came the second Jewish revolt, led by Bar Kokhba in the years 132-136 CE, The Emperor Hadrian was going to re-build the city as a (conciliatory?) gift to the Jews, but was counselled not to do that as it may encourage another rebellion, So Hadrian rebuilt the city as a Roman colony and named it Aelia Capitolina.

This map is believed to show the city around the early 6th century.

The Madaba Map depiction of 6th-century Jerusalem has the Cardo Maximus, the town’s main street, beginning at the northern gate, today's Damascus Gate, and traversing the city in a straight line from north to south to "Nea Church"

Jews were forbidden to enter the new city (except for one day a year). If they did they could be executed. Temples for the worship of Roman Gods were built. When the Emperor Constantine began to tolerate Christianity, a number of churches were built in the city. All the burial remains in the city in this period are Christian, suggesting that the city had become a Christian city. Which brings us to this discovered inscription: Here's an image of it.

Translated to English it reads:

"The most pious Roman emperor Flavius Justinian and the most God-loving priest and abbot, Constantine, erected the building in which (this mosaic) sat during the 14th indiction."

Dated by archaeologists to 550-551 CE, it is likely that it was associated with the Nea Church that Justinian ordered to be built in 543 CE.

More information in this ABC (Australia) coverage:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/construction-workers-unearth-6th-century-mosaic-in-jerusalem/8841794

However just as YHWH was not powerful enough to prevent the Romans destroying Jerusalem, neither was Jesus powerful enough to prevent Sasanian (Iranian) forces from conquering the city in 614 with the aid of the Jews, who then massacred tens of thousands of Christians and destroyed Christian churches.

In 629, the Byzantian Emperor Heraclius, re-conquered the city and the Byzantians were able to manage to hold the city until the flood tide of Arab armies captured the city and it became an Arabic.Muslim city.

11

A Reminder of the time when Jerusalem was a Christian City

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.

this is the story of how jerusalem changed into a christian city for a brief period in its history.

how did it happen?

fulltimestudent

So here at last is an image of the recently discovered inscription.

Translated to English it reads:

"The most pious Roman emperor Flavius Justinian and the most God-loving priest and abbot, Constantine, erected the building in which (this mosaic) sat during the 14th indiction."

Dated by archaeologists to 550-551 CE, it is likely that it was associated with the Nea Church that Justinian ordered to be built in 543 CE.

Justinian could be described as the Emperor who completed the conversion of the Roman Empire to Christianity. Constantine had initiated the process, but it can be argued that the conversion of the empire was no sure thing at the time of his death. But by the time of Justinian's death the process of conversion was probably irreversible.

That's why I present this archaological find as a "reminder" of a "Christian" Jerusalem.

More information in this ABC (Australia) coverage of the story:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-25/construction-workers-unearth-6th-century-mosaic-in-jerusalem/8841794

However just as YHWH was not powerful enough to prevent the Romans destroying Jerusalem, neither was Jesus powerful enough to prevent Sasanian (Iranian) forces from conquering the city in 614 with the aid of the Jews, who then massacred tens of thousands of Christians and destroyed Christian churches.

In 629, the Byzantian Emperor Heraclius, re-conquered the city and the Byzantians were able to manage to hold the city until the flood tide of Arab armies captured the city and it became an Arabic.Muslim city.

During the Christian crusades against Islam, Jerusalem (briefly) became a "Christian" city once more, but teh Christians could not hold it against various Muslim armies. Here's how a Wikipedia entry describes the see-sawing war between Christians and Muslims

Jerusalem was conquered by the Christian First Crusade in 1099, after it had been under the Muslim rule for 450 years.

Here's how a Wikipedia entry describes that see-sawing process during the crusades.

It (Jerusalem) became the capital of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, until it was again conquered by the Ayyubids in 1187. For the next forty years, a series of Christian campaigns (the Third, Fourth and Fifth Crusades) attempted in vain to retake the city, until Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor leading the Sixth Crusade successfully negotiated its return in 1229. In 1244, the city was taken by the Khwarazmian dynasty and mostly destroyed. After 1250, it came under the rule of the Mamluk sultanate and was gradually rebuilt during the later 13th century. During those wars both sides used atrocities to attempt to demoralise the enemy,

Post WW1, the British claimed Palestine as part of the British Empire. After WW2 and the genocidal attempt by the Nazi's to exterminate European Jews. various Jewish groups used terrorist tactics to force the British out.

And today Jerusalem is (mostly) Jewish again.

11

A Reminder of the time when Jerusalem was a Christian City

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.

this is the story of how jerusalem changed into a christian city for a brief period in its history.

how did it happen?

fulltimestudent

JESUS really got into the act in the 4th century, although there was likely a Christian presence in the city before that. There are early Christian records that provide the name of various bishops in charge of the Jerusalem congregation.

But sometime after the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan and began to tolerate Christianity, his mother Helena, who may have been the major influence on Constantine’s decision to tolerate Christianity, visited Palestine, persuaded Constantine to order the demolition of the Temple of Venus and paid for the construction of some churches, including the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, built over the site of the former temple of Venus.

In history books we seldom see images of Helena, which is interesting considering that she most likely was the source of the Christian influence on her son. But here’s one surviving image.

And here's a pik of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre

In 335CE bishops from all over west Asia came to Jerusalem for the dedication of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. While there Constantine instructed them to convene a council to discuss church affairs and interestingly this council favoured Arianism.

Also interesting is the fact that most of the burial remains of this historical period are Christian, suggesting that the majority of people living in Jerusalem were Christian.

Jerusalem had become a Christian city.

Which brings us to that recent discovery

11

A Reminder of the time when Jerusalem was a Christian City

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

construction workers in jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when jerusalem could be described as a christian city.

this is the story of how jerusalem changed into a christian city for a brief period in its history.

how did it happen?

fulltimestudent

Construction workers in Jerusalem have uncovered an inscription that recalls the era when Jerusalem could be described as a Christian city. This is the story of how Jerusalem changed into a Christian city for a brief period in its history

How did it happen?

We usually think of Jerusalem as a Jewish city, but following the first Roman war against the Jews and the destruction of the city in 70 CE, Jerusalem lay in ruins, as described by Josephus:

"Jerusalem ... was so thoroughly razed to the ground by those that demolished it to its foundations, that nothing was left that could ever persuade visitors that it had once been a place of habitation."

References: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/josephussack.html

Then came the second Jewish revolt, led by Bar Kokhba in the years 132-136 CE, and the very savage Roman reprisals against the rebellious Jews.

Archaeological evidence of both the siege and the later Roman reconstruction has been found. Here's one account of some of the evidence that has been found.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/20/israeli-archeologists-discover-titus-breached-jerusalem-walls

The Jews rebelled again, the second Jewish revolt, led by Bar Kokhba in the years 132-136 CE, followed by very savage Roman reprisals against the rebellious Jews. Jews were forbidden to enter the new city (except for one day a year). If they did they could be executed. Temples for the worship of Roman Gods were built.

This how the 4th century Christian historian described that time:

"The whole nation (of the Jews) was prohibited from this time on by a decree, and by the commands of Adrian, from ever going up to the country about Jerusalem. For the emperor gave orders that they should not even see from a distance the land of their fathers. Such is the account of Aristo of Pella. And thus, when the city had been emptied of the Jewish nation and had suffered a total destruction of its ancient inhabitants, it was colonized by a different race, and the Roman city which subsequently arose was called Aelia, in honour of the emperor Aelius Adrian." - – Eusebius, History of the Church, 39.6.3.

This map is believed to show the city (in an illustrated way) around the early 6th century.

The Madaba Map depiction of 6th-century Jerusalem has the Cardo Maximus, the town’s main street, beginning at the northern gate, today's Damascus Gate, and traversing the city in a straight line from north to south to "Nea Church"

Where once the Jews had worshipped YHWH, but with Jews now banned from the new city (except for one day a year). If they did they could be executed. Roman and Greek colonists worshipped pagan gods in temples built by the Romans.

That was the end of the association between the city and the Jews of that period, Jerusalem had become a Roman city.

So how did JESUS get into the act?

21

Cart witnessing in the quietest in my suburb.

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i walked to the station yesterday to meet a friend, and on the way, in what must be the quietest street in the entire suburb, were two j.witnesses and their little cart, all set with a literature display.

i wondered what point there may have been to choose that location.

i felt like grabbing one of their bibles and reading matthew 5:15 to them:.

fulltimestudent

I walked to the station yesterday to meet a friend, and on the way, in what must be the quietest street in the entire suburb, were two J.witnesses and their little cart, all set with a literature display. I wondered what point there may have been to choose that location. I felt like grabbing one of their bibles and reading Matthew 5:15 to them:

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.

Whatever hours they reported were wasted hours.

And ironically, the magazine at the top of the display, asked the question, (grin), " Are you doing too much."