Posts by MeanMrMustard

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

I am glad that you have read both Jonsson and Furuli. Your claim of the commitment of logical fallacies by Furuli and my good self is simply 'hot air' on your part.

I disagree. Both you and Furuli take small exceptions and elevate them to the rule. You’ve got all sorts of Bible translations rendering 25:11 as a clear separation of thoughts, and you quote the NEB, a translation known for English fluency over accuracy, and treat is as the baseline. Furuli, in a vain attempt to extend the kings lists by 20 years, finds “anomalous” business document tablets that seem to be dated outside of various kings regnal years here and there. A month here, month there. Most turned out to be collation errors. But instead of considering these anomalies as possible scribal mistakes or collation errors, these tablets were taken as truth and used to argue against the other thousands of documents.

Verses 1-9 provide the context for this chapter and it is the context that proves that the 70 years specifically applies to Judah as recent scholarship on the subject shows.

This is literally ludicrous, scholar. Verse 9 specifically says Babylon will come against Judah and “all these nations round about”. That’s two verses before “these nations” in v11. Its servitude for “these nations”, as recent scholarship on this subject shows.

The Bible provides a detailed history of what befell Judah thus a Chronology can then be made but this is not the case with the other nations for which no details are given as to their particulars periods of servitude apply.

Non sequitur. That is pure logical BS.

No it does matter that the seventy years was a period of servitude, exile and desolation running from the fall to the Return.

Yes it does matter. Seventy years of servitude for Babylon of “these nations”. What nations? 25:9 - Judah and all the nations round about. It’s seventy years for Babylon - 29:10. It’s plainly stated.

The verse 18 follows on from what is stated in vs. 12 which deals with the nations, first Babylon beginning after the 70 years had elapsed in 537 BCE... Nope the calling into account for Babylon only commenced after the 70 years had finished in 537 and not 539 BCE as shown by recent scholarship.

25:11 specifically says the servitude is under the rule of Babylon.

How can Babylon be called to account after it’s been overthrown? There is no Babylon, as a ruling entity, after 539. There is no meaningful way anyone can serve the king of Babylon after the empire is gone, as recent scholarship has pointed out.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

In connection with the translation of Jer. 25:11 you should consult the major technical commentaries on Jeremiah and read what Rolf Furuli has written on the grammar of this text.

Let’s not beat around the bush. You know that in my previous posts I recommended Carl Jonsson’s book. You, then, should know I’ve read Furuli’s arguments, and COJ’s counter arguments that he regularly places on his site.

You both employ the same logical fallacy of taking exceptions and elevating them to the rule.

Yes one must read the context of this chapter and you will notice that in vs.1 and vs.9 which shows that the target is Judah and not Babylon.

Verse 1-9 are just intro verses. They don’t, in any way, limit the scope of the seventy years to Judah alone. Jeremiah is a Jewish prophet, prophesying to Judah, but the content of the prophesy speaks for itself.

From 25:11 :

Judah will be desolate.
These nations will serve the Babylon seventy years.

What nations? The ones listed, starting in verse 19. Verse 17 again says Jerusalem itself, and the cities of Judah, will become “ruin”, a “horror”, a “hissing and a curse”, and the states “as it is this day” - meaning the servitude has already begun.

The whole of chapter 27 is about the nations submitting to Babylon.

The historical accounts in the Bible concerning Judah provide data that allows one to construct a clear chronology for Judah but such is not the case for the other nations.

This makes no sense. The Bible alone can’t provide a clear chronology. You have to anchor it with external sources. Those are well documented in COJ’s book.

Jer. 25:11 simply states that Judah along with the other nations would serve Babylon for a period of 70 years

Yes correct. As vassals.... unless they rebelled. In the case of rebellion, they would be destroyed and forced to submit. Guess which option the Jews chose. But that choice was made 20 years into the servitude of “these nations”.

...and scholar has always said that the 70 years was a period of desolation of Judah,

No. It doesn’t matter what you have always said.

...an Exile of the Jews to Babylon and a period of servitude to Babylon beginning with the Fall in 607 BCE until the Return in 537 BCE.

No. 25:18 “as it is this day” - the servitude was ongoing during the time of chapter 25.

But that is what Jeremiah explicitly states that it was only after the 70 years had been fulfilled or ended that a Judgement against Babylon would come into effect.

I have it exactly what Jeremiah states in vs.12/

That’s right. 70 years ended, then Babylon is held to account. 539 was the holding Babylon to account... so the seventy years was over by 539. It can not be 537 as the WT claims.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

No. 25:12 says the exact opposite. It explicitly states the order of events : First 70 years ends, then calling to account. In no way can the calling to account happen after the 70 years.

Quoting myself here. I messed this paragraph up. Went too fast @ work on a phone. Meant:

No. 25:12 explicitly tells an order. 70 years ends then Babylon is called to account. The WT has the 70 years ending in 537 BC, two years after Babylon was called to account. Doesn’t work.

Also, I am definitely coming down with a cold. May not respond , maybe I will.. don’t know.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

No for there are various translations for Jer.25:11such the New English Bible which renders the text this way:'For seventy years this whole country shall be a scandal and a horror,these nations shall be in subjection to the king of Babylon".

Right. I can’t get NEB online. Nor can I get the REB, which was created because the NEB was fast and loose with some of its translations. NEB was more concerned with English fluency than accuracy. I am suggesting that there is a really good reason why the English in 25:11 is rendered as two separate thoughts, with the seventy years only attaching to the servitude of “these nations” in 99% (probably more) of Bible translations out there - mainly, the Hebrew here is actually pretty straightforward. A long time ago when I debated this amongst other religious forums, I decided to test this idea. I personally emailed Hebrew scholars (real ones at Universities), and I threw it out to b-Hebrew mailing list too. The answers I received were unanimous - the grammar is simple in Hebrew. Unfortunately I didn’t keep these email exchanges.

But you can easily see if you display all the translations in biblegateway next to each other.

Not only that, but you are stuck with the context of 25. Even looking at 27:6 - 12, the emphasis is on serving the king of Babylon.

It is only for Judah that we a defined history for their servitude to Babylon as for the other nations roundabout we have no similar defined history.

This makes no sense. Word salad. It’s defined right in chapter 25. The nations are explicitly listed.

Jeremiah clearly states that other nations would also serve Babylon but Judah would serve for a precise period of 70 years.

No. It explicitly states the opposite in simple grammar. If you read the NWT of 25:11, states the opposite. Are you saying the NWT committee didn’t understand English grammar?

Babylon certainly received a judgement with its Fall in 539 BCE but the final calling to account only took place after the 70 years had ended in 537 BCE with its gradual demise in history leading to its total desolation.

No. 25:12 says the exact opposite. It explicitly states the order of events : First 70 years ends, then calling to account. In no way can the calling to account happen after the 70 years.

So in verse 12 Babylon's judgement only begins after the end of the 70 years not before with its end of its city, kingship and land.

Nice and easy!!!

You have it exactly backwards.

32

Another Professor Renounces Darwinism

by Sea Breeze in

david gelernter, a famed yale university professor, has publicly renounced his belief in charles darwin’s theory of evolution, calling it a “beautiful idea” that has been effectively disproven.. article.

MeanMrMustard

I find it odd that a computer scientist would “deny” evolution. The process of evolution is an algorithm. There is a division of computer science dedicated to “genetic algorithms”. These are algorithms that are evolved with the process of natural selection, applied over “generations”, shapes by a “fitness” criteria. NP-hard problems, such as the traveling salesman problem, can be solved with genetic algorithms. What’s interesting is that these algorithms are not “perfect”, but tend to be very efficient.

The “evolving” process is a precursor back propagation algorithms that train neural networks.

24

Do You Think That Belonging To Certain Political Parties Suggests You Are Uneducated or Poor?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i hear some people say that if you are a republican or democrat that you must not be very educated, intelligent or monetarily stable.

.

do you think it’s proper to paint any person as less than favorable because of their political opinions?

MeanMrMustard

We can’t judge intelligence by political party. But one thing we know for sure - All big “L” Libertarians have three nipples.

34

New Massachusetts Bill ProposesTo Fine or Jail Someone For Calling Someone a Bitch!

by minimus in

jw
friends

and if you call someone a bitch , you would be fined 150 dollars the first offense and second is 200 plus possible jail time..

MeanMrMustard

What about certain cultural dialects that use “bitch” in a positive way?

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

@scholar: Uhhhh. Based on your last response to me, you are either on of two things: 1) a troll, or 2) someone that has the same affliction, when flustered, as the sheriff of rottingham. Ref: https://youtu.be/CKhGiFOMsS0

But, for the lurkers and honest researchers that may stumble across this thread, on with the show:

No it is not a simple verse to translate for the Hebrew allows for different translations of this verse.

Actually, yes it is. Go to biblegateway.com, look up the verse, and then display all the versions and translations they have of that verse on one page. Read down the list. I guess you could make the argument everyone got it wrong... even the NWT committee...

The nations would be in servitude but we do not know what specific histories apply to these nations but only with Judah is its servitude to Babylon defined.

If you are a lurker, you may be wondering: “Is it just me, or was that last sentence a bunch of word salad?” It’s not you - it’s word salad. Hence my appeal to Sheriff of Rottingham syndrome.

If I had to guess what he is meaning to say, it would be: “Yes, ‘these nations’ would be in servitude, but the seventy years applies to Judah because... reasons.”

Babylon's account to judgement could only begin after the seventy years had been fulfilled which rules out 539 BCE ...

No, it doesn’t. The seventy years ends, then Babylon is held to account. Babylon is held to account in 539, therefore the seventy years ended sometime before its fall. Maybe 539... 540... 541... could be. But it can’t be after Babylon’s fall.

...so this verse 12 could only apply after the release of the Jews in 537BCE in the straits of time with the gradual desolation of the kingship, city and land as foretold also by Isaiah.

Sorry, you have a choice. Hold on to grammar, or 537. Can’t be both. I await more word salad.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

MeanMrMustard Jer 25:11 certainly refers to other nations who also are brought into servitude to Babylon but only for Judah that had to serve Babylon for a predetermined period of 70 years. After the 70 ended for Judah then as stated in vs 12 Babylon was to experience her judgement. The Babylonian rule or domination of Judah was to last for 70 years beginning in 607 BCE and ending in 537BCE.

Pffft lol. That is some top notch trollery.

For the sake of lurkers and the like: Notice 25:11 literally says, with no ambiguity, regardless of translation used, that “these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” It does not say Judah is captive for seventy years. It does not say Judah will serve Babylon for seventy years. It says “these nations”... the ones that were explicitly listed at the beginning of the chapter. There’s no interpreting to do, nothing. Just a plain, simple statement.

25:12 is also simple. It has an order of events. First, the seventy years ends. Next, Babylon is held to account. Since Babylon was held to account in 539 BC, the seventy years ended sometime before 539. Now, I guess you could say it ended the moment just before Babylon fell - whatever that means. But one thing you can’t say is that the seventy years “for Babylon” ended in 537.

This upsets WT chronology immediately. No need to debate about tablets.

There is no need to force any other date for the fall of Jerusalem. 587 BC works just fine, no contradictions.

277

Did Jeruselm fall in 587 or 586 BCE?

by Doug Mason in

i came across this article written in 2004 by an evangelical.. “when did jerusalem fall?”, rodger young, journal of the evangelical society [jets], 47/1 (march 2004), 21-38.. http://www.rcyoung.org/articles/jerusalem.pdf .

these are the conclusions of the 18-page analysis.

(1) jerusalem fell in the fourth month (tammuz) of 587 bc.

MeanMrMustard

@ scholar, mega troll emeritus:

MeanMrMustard It makes no difference as to whether Jer. 29:10 is translated 'for Babylon' or 'at Babylon' as the result is the same namely that the Jews remained in Babylon as Exiles for 70 years and the Jewish nation served Baylon for 70 years as Jeremiah had foretold exactly as the bible describes and in harmony with Josephus. The said scholar is no troll just ask Doug Mason. scholar

Oh yeah? Why should I ask Doug Mason? Does he have some insight into your trollery?

Come now, 25:11 says “these nations” will serve the King of Babylon for seventy years. Verse 12 sets up an ordering of events that invalidates the WT chronology, and 29:10 underscores that it’s 70 years “for Babylon”.

It makes a world of difference. It is explicitly saying that the seventy years is not Jewish captivity, rather Babylonian rule. It completely disrupts the “Bible vs Secular history” narrative coming from the WT.

This is the origination of the prophecy. The grammar is simple and plain.