Posts by MeanMrMustard

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

Does this comment indicate your skill in linguistics and in Hebrew and Greek?

No. Not sure what Greek has to do with Jerimiah, buuuttt... I figure it's a safe bet to lean on the hundreds, if not thousands, of qualified academics that have translated these verses into English.

I suppose you could make the claim that pretty much all of them, professional linguists that they are, couldnt help but botch Jerimiah 25 so terribly again and again. So strange that these hundreds, if not thousands, of experts all understood that the 70 years was desolation and exile, but for some reason kept rendering the verses in English in ways that grammatically separate the desolation of Judah and servitude of "these nations".

Is that what we have? A world of terrible translators? Including the NWT committee too? Because they render it the same way...

21

Jewish Hatred Is Nothing New

by minimus in

jw
friends

jews have been vilified for centuries!

they were nomads looking for the promised land.

they have been nearly exterminated and yet they are still in the middle east as well as a brotherhood throughout the world.

MeanMrMustard

This makes them an easy target by those that aren’t successful, you can just point and say: look, they are rich while you are poor, they must be taking from you.

Sounds familiar.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

In the end, if you read the relevant scriptures grammatically, then the plain meaning that comes from that grammatical reading, as opposed to reading into the scriptures an ideology, is easy to see, and there are no contradictions with the historical evidence.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

Unfortunately, 'scholar' is a lost cause, but other readers of the forum can see through his nonsense.

Yyyeeeaaap. He's been going around in these illogical circles for two decades. At least on this forum..

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

Impossible for the land was not in a desolate state at that time but only after the Fall in 607 BCE.

It's seventy years of servitude, not desolation. The land doesn't need to be desolate to be a vassal (to serve). Not only is it possible, but common place.

Well the land was not made desolate was it in 539 BCE was it? So your interpretation does not agree with the prophecy in vs.12.

It doesn't have to be. Verse 12 states the land would become desolate. It does not state it would become desolate corresponding with the end of the seventy years. That's all added in your head.

Vs 10-11 are about desolation and servitude in connection with the fall in 607 BCE.

Yes, and if read grammatically, the verse states that Judah would become desolate. The thought ends (compound sentence). Then the statement "these nations" would serve the king of Babylon seventy years. The seventy years attaches to the servitude, not the desolation.

...and the following verse which now turns its focus on Babylon after the 70 years had ended in 537 BCE would now experience judgement.

Same grammatical problem. Reading the verse grammatically, 70 years ends, Babylon called to account (overthrown), and it will become desolate (a statement that could be true anytime in the future). It is simply not required by the verse that the "calling to account" equals desolation. In fact, the grammar indicates otherwise.

21

Jewish Hatred Is Nothing New

by minimus in

jw
friends

jews have been vilified for centuries!

they were nomads looking for the promised land.

they have been nearly exterminated and yet they are still in the middle east as well as a brotherhood throughout the world.

MeanMrMustard

I never quite understood the Jewish hatred. I mean, it's true that the Jews have gotten the raw end many times throughout history... but why the idea that they are the center of bad things ?

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

True the Bible does not contradict so one's interpretation must be in harmony with not just the context, the Bible book itself and the whole Bible. The 70 years ends with the 'calling to account of Babylon' which according to Jer. 21:12 what is clearly stated in that verse was only after the 70 years was fulfilled and not before that time.

Yeah, "These nations" (Judah and all the nations "round about") serve Babylon for 70 years. The 70 years end, and Babylon is "called to account".

When were the 70 years fulfilled?

From v12, sometime before Babylon was "called to account".

This could only be at the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE and not at the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE.

That is the most unnatural reading, basically a non-sequitor. It doesn't follow. The 70 years of servitude could not continue past the fall of the government that they applied to. Illogical. For you to say "this could only be at the return of the Jews" is nonsense.

The servitude to Babylon of a specific period of 70 years applied to Judah which also included other nations as stated in Jer. 25:11

Yes, and it was ongoing at the time 25:11 was written, as referenced by v18. It was 70 years of servitude, which had gotten its start before the destruction as a vassal state.

Are you an expert in Hebrew and Bible translation?

Logical fallacy - appeal to authority. But irrelevant anyway.

I concede no such thing. Babylon's calling to account or judgement was not immediate but a process in time as verse 12 clearly explains culminating with its desolation of the land which did not happen in 539 BCE. A careful and not sloppy reading of that verse proves that the judgement against Babylon could only have begun after the Return of the Jews in 537 BCE.

No, scholar. The promise of desolation is in no way connected to the 70 years, either in verse 10 or verse 12. Verse 12 states that the seventy years would end, Babylon would be called to account, and the land would be made desolate. The desolation is not connected to the end of the 70 years, just as the desolation of Judah is not connected to the beginning in v10.

For you to hypothesize that the "calling Bablyon to account" is suddenly a drawn out process that goes beyond the reign of Babylon the most indirect, illogical, ungrammatical reading.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

Gibberish: The 70 years was fulfilled at the ending of the 70 years marked by the return of the Jewish Exiles in 537 BCE

No, the 70 years ends, then Babylon is called to account. This is the order objectively, clearly stated at Jer 25:12. And that fits with 2 Chronicles. The Bible need not contradict.

The servitude began with the beginning of the Exile with the Jews being deported to Babylon

The servitude was many nations to Babylon (v 10,11), and was already ongoing at the time of Jer 25 - see v18 "as they are today".

You don't even need to get into contemporary sources. A grammatical reading of the text rules out WT chronology.

..for no other theory or viewpoint makes any sense.

Except the one that allows Jer, Chronicles, and history to agree.

Babylon was already brought to account with the release of the Exiles after its Fall in 539 BCE and its eventual desolation as foretold by Jeremiah.

You concede WT chronology is incorrect. If "Babylon was already brought to account with the release of the Exiles" in 539, and Jer 25:12 states the seventy years ends before the calling to account, then the 70 years ended 539 or before. But definitely not 537.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

@Rocket:

The land finally enjoyed its Sabbath rest, lying desolate until the seventy years were fulfilled, just as the prophet had said.

Until the seventy years were "fulfilled". Until the 70 years were completed - as in the 70 years had already begun. The "servitude" spoken of by Jerimiah started before the destruction, and continued during exile, until it was finally "fulfilled". And when it was finally completed, Babylon was brought to account. That's the Biblical order. It matches history well. It doesn't match WT chronology.

178

Interesting Find with Chronology

by Kelley959 in

i hope this is in the right area.

i've been studying the 2520 days/years 607/587/586 debacle.

for a while now i have felt 1914 was wrong.

MeanMrMustard

Scholar has been arguing for the WT's chronology on this site for years, probably decades. He rarely comments on any other topic.