Posts by MeanMrMustard

48

Does prophesy negate free will?

by Tim207 in

not sure if this is in the right subject but here it goes.

i’ve asked this question to a few elders and bethelites but they don’t seem to understand or like the question.

to start off we have to agree that jehovah is all powerful.

MeanMrMustard

But that is not what christians & JWs believe.

All Christians? The references that I passed to you were written by Christians, well at least the second reference. The first seemed like flat out logic paper, critical of determinism.

They teach that god knows every tiny detail of your life - every single thought word and action - BEFORE your birth.

Exactly. But they are also saying this pre-knowledge doesn't imply what you think it implies, without creating a modal logic error. God's pre-knowledge comes first chronologically, but not logically.

Let me see if I can say this another way. If God can create a world with free will, all that omniscience implies is that He knows the outcomes of the free will, not that free will doesn't exist. They assert FIRST that free will exists. THEN assert God knows the outcomes because of the omniscience. Choice causes the pre-knowledge, not pre-knowledge causing the choice.

In short, God knows what you will choose. But you still choose.

Indeed that is what the bible teaches if read literally. JWs believe the same except they insist god doesn't choose to read The Great Big Book of You; He COULD know but prefers not to. Perhaps Jehovah likes surprises.

Right, and that has its own contradiction - as I stated earlier.

Anybody theist who insists on god's omniscience cannot square this circle. There is/was a school of thought called Open Theism led by men like Clark Pinnock that tried to unpick this puzzle by teaching that God does not know the future perfectly as he cannot know our free choices in advance.

Again, I don't see the explicit contradiction. Where is the square circle? They are looking at free will and omniscience a differently than you are... but why is that a contradiction? Look, I am not making an argument for that world view. I am just saying that I don't see the explicit contradiction (square circle).

I had a falling out with our Baptist pastor over this issue and became an apostate for a second time.

I had a falling out with my cat today, as I almost transformed him into General Tso's ... I miss General Tso's.

48

Does prophesy negate free will?

by Tim207 in

not sure if this is in the right subject but here it goes.

i’ve asked this question to a few elders and bethelites but they don’t seem to understand or like the question.

to start off we have to agree that jehovah is all powerful.

MeanMrMustard

The choice comes first logically. The choice causes the pre-knowledge, not the other way around. If you choose differently, God would know that choice. But you still had the free will to make the choice.

17

Why do Jehovah`s Witnesses Shun fellow believers When God and Jesus never shunned even Satan ?

by smiddy3 in

scholars generally agree that it was written between the 7th and 4th centuries bce, with the 6th century bce as the most likely period for various reasons.

the book of job .. so according to jw`s about 6,000 years ago satan rebelled against jehovah god ,did jehovah disown him there and then shunning him ?.

apparently not as we can read from the book of job centuries later that satan could still come and go freely before the throne of jehovah in heaven .job 1: 6. and apparently he could still do this for centuries later ,that is coming to and fro before jehovah because according to the jw religion he wasn`t cast out of heaven for another 2,000 years until the 20th century .. now in the case of jesus much of what is said about jehovah and satan also applies to jesus before he came to earth.. but even when he was on earth he didn`t shun satan either in fact he allowed satan to lead him around according to the bible account.luke 4:13 so the devil having concluded all the temptations retired from him until another convenient time .so it wasn`t jesus calling the shots here it was satan .. mark 1: 13 he ,jesus, also shared 40 days in the wilderness with satan letting him tempt him .. so their was no way either jehovah or jesus ever shunned satan the devil according to the bible writings.. and when jesus ascended to heaven after his sacrifice he along with his father jehovah still had association with satan the devil until he was cast out of heaven 2,000 years later ,according to the jw`s..

MeanMrMustard

It is because 1914 was the Judicial Committee meeting. It was only after this that the appropriate announcement was made in heaven, followed by a special needs talk.

28

Should You Be Required To Wear A Coronavirus Mask?

by minimus in

jw
friends

some towns require everyone going outside to wear one.

one massachusetts city requires anyone from 5 up to wear a mask.

some cities require masks and have shut down parks and sports playing while others in a nearby town have no such restrictions.

MeanMrMustard

48

Does prophesy negate free will?

by Tim207 in

not sure if this is in the right subject but here it goes.

i’ve asked this question to a few elders and bethelites but they don’t seem to understand or like the question.

to start off we have to agree that jehovah is all powerful.

MeanMrMustard

MMM- You are missing the point.

The god of xtian theism knows every single thing I will ever say, think or do in minute detail.

Right.

Therefore the book of my life from conception to death is already written in stone (the god of the WT chooses not to read the book - an irrelevant detail)

I agree, the WT God chooses to see only parts of the future. It is somewhat confusing how He would choose the parts of the future to ignore without first having knowledge of those future parts, so as to not know them... but, as you say, irrelevant detail.

Therefore I have no freedom to choose otherwise.

But that is the modal logic fallacy described. So it is not missing the point. In short, just because God’s knows your decision, doesn’t invalidate your decision making ability. You could choose otherwise, in which case God would know that choice.

38

Has Anyone Had Chinese Food Lately?

by minimus in

jw
friends

since this virus, i have noticed that nearly all of the take out joints in my area are closed.

.

MeanMrMustard

All closed. The cat population is exploding.

48

Does prophesy negate free will?

by Tim207 in

not sure if this is in the right subject but here it goes.

i’ve asked this question to a few elders and bethelites but they don’t seem to understand or like the question.

to start off we have to agree that jehovah is all powerful.

MeanMrMustard

To be honest, I am not sure what Joen was saying. I was responding to the thread question - does prophesy negate free will?

I went back and read some of the previous comments too. You said this too:

Every effort by theologians to combine foreknowledge and free will amounts to nothing but sophistry and hand waving.

Why? What is being claimed is that the argument:

Necessarily, P implies Q.
P
Therefore, necessarily Q.

And that is a logic error. You can conclude, “Therefore Q”, but you can’t conclude “necessarily Q”. In other words, if God knows ABC will occur, it follows that ABC will occur, but not that it must necessarily occur. ABC may not occur, but then God would have known differently.

Trying to reword - the causation is reversed. There is free will, the knowledge of the choice is there before the choice, but that doesn’t mean the choice was forced. The choice will happen, but if it were a different choice, the pre-knowledge would have been different.

https://www.iep.utm.edu/foreknow/

Forgot to add this source:

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/podcasts/defenders-podcast-series-2/s2-doctrine-of-god-attributes-of-god/doctrine-of-god-part-14/

2

theory of wuhan virus being created in a lab now being considered by UK and USA and others.

by JimmyYoung in

i thought it was a strange coincidence that there was a weapons lab right near the supposed wet market where it started.

china needs to pay for this one way or the other.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-coronavirus-origin-chinese-lab-bats.

MeanMrMustard

Why did you duplicate the thread?

31

Theory of Wuhan virus being created in a viral lab now being considered

by JimmyYoung in

i thought it was a strange coincidence that there was a weapons lab right near the supposed wet market where it started.

china needs to pay for this one way or the other.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-coronavirus-origin-chinese-lab-bats.

MeanMrMustard

If it is a Chinese creation, why does it have to be a military operation? It could have been created in order to help study the mechanisms of other respiratory viruses emerging from the area for the purposes of developing vaccines. It could have been well intentioned, and it just got out.

One thing we do know - if this is a Chinese creation, this is the longest anything made in China has ever lasted.

21

What Happened To This Year’s JW Memorial Celebration

by minimus in

jw
friends

i really don’t know.

did they have it?

.

MeanMrMustard

We were sent the link to the event by other “concerned” family members. By that I mean family members that are convinced these are the last days of the last days...

The in-laws thought it would be good to invite us over to watch the show. They said they purchased emblems. I assume they watched from the comfort of their living room, as they just stared at the bread and wine? Did they dress up for the occasion? No clue.