Posts by Vanderhoven7

32

What's The Longest You've Been In A Relationship?

by minimus in

jw
friends

and if you were dating someone "seriously", how long did that last?.

Vanderhoven7

40 years if we make it to August 14th.

134

i learned about y'all in the second grade, and fell in love with your beautiful land.. my geography book was filled with pictures of your wheat fields, lakes, rivers, and smiling people.. one of the ancestors, an aunt of hank aaron, used to regale us with wonderful stories of her visits to your country: the cleanliness, the warmth and friendliness of the people, and the lack of overt racial prejudice.. later on, i read about the underground railroad.

my heart swelled with admiration and respect as i found out how your country welcomed fugitive slaves.. my resolve is to visit y'all one of these fine days and see for myself what i've been told.

my little jw daughter and her dad have been there, and they both agree that canada is a land of freedom and opportunity.. to the canucks on this here forum, i salute you, as you only reinforce what i've been told about y'all.

Vanderhoven7

Canada Day

Shamus,

It's different here in Quebec.

In Quebec, Canada Day signals the burning of the beaver celebration.

Ity helps define us as a nation.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Vanderhoven7

Yes, and those passages that say that God is the only Savior and that there was no other God with Him in creation.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hos 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Vanderhoven7

For God ... hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON

EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. He that

honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father which

hath sent Him. Jn.5:22,23

Witnesses argue that Jesus Christ is not worthy of the unqualified or unlimited worship due the Father. But by denying the Son reverent homage or service paid to God they can only ascribe to Him instead, recognition, honor, respect given to men.

Relative honor to God through an angel was

reproved in these words: "Be careful! Do not

do that!...Worship God."

Revelation 19:10; 22:8, 9, NWT)

'Let God Be True', 1952 edition p. 151

The distinctions Witnesses make in worship due the Father and Son are totally extra-biblical and not in keeping with Apostolic teaching and practice.

What is it that distinguishes that Christ is not to be genuinely worshipped as the Father is worshipped?

Language of Scripture:

"Proskyneo" is consistently translated as "worship" in the King James. It is the major Greek word translated as worship. "Proskyneo" is applied 21 times to the Father and 17 times to the Son. The only fair conclusion we can come to here is that the language of scripture does not distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped as the Father is worshiped.

Scriptural Example:

There is not one example of the disciples or anyone else in scripture limiting their expression of worship of Christ. Jesus never rebuked the disciple for improper proskyneo of Himself. Only the self proclaimed religious authorities objected to Jesus being honored as the Father was honored. They proclaimed vigorously, saying such things as, "You make yourself equal with God" and "Only God can forgive sins" etc. To them, no man should claim the attributes or prerogatives of God. So not only does scriptural language, but also scriptural example fails to distinguish that Christ is not to be genuinely worshiped.

Scriptural Instruction:

There are no proscriptive instructions defining relative proskyneo of Christ, nor are there restrictive commandments, limiting the proskyneo of the Son. So the alleged distinction in meaning of proskyneo of Father and Son is not clarified by a distinction in scriptural terminology or by scriptural example or by scriptural commandment either prescriptive or restrictive. All restrictions proposed by any religious authority are really extra-biblical (i.e. the commandments of men). The truth is that ALL MEN SHOULD HONOR THE SON EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER (Jn.5:22, 23). Christians can and the disciples could, never honor Jesus too highly.

Witnesses argue that Matthew 4:10 excludes unqualified worship of the Son. "You shall worship the Lord your God and him ONLY shall you serve". (Matt 4:10) That is simply not true. The exclusive element of this instruction rests on the last phrase and yet we are called to be servants of Christ. If we substitute the word "Honor" for worship in Matthew 4:10, so that it read "You shall honor the Lord your God and him only shall you serve", would the verse inform Christians that they should not give identical honor to the Son?

Form and Content:

"...to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong."

(W.T. March 1880. p.83)

Can the alleged distinction in meaning of 'proskyneo' when applied to the Son be established by the form or content of worship displayed by the disciples/apostles? Do not the following constitute elements of proskyneo in terms of form and content that can legitimately be a part of the proskyneo rendered to the Son:

a. bowing the knee to Jesus while confessing Him as Lord? Phil.2:9-11

b. prostrating oneself completely before Jesus? Rev.5:8

c. fellowship or commune with Jesus, sharing our personal

aspirations and hopes? I Jn.1:3

d. coming to Jesus for relief of personal burdens and

cares? Mat. 11:28

e. calling on the name of Jesus, addressing Him personally

as Lord? Acts 9:14, I Cor.1:2

f. praying personally to Jesus, petitioning Him for self

and others? Acts 7:59-60 Jn.14:14

g. glorifying Jesus by praise? Ps.50:23 Jn.16:14, Mat.21:14-16

h. honoring Jesus verbally by ascribing worth to Him?

eg."To Him who sits on the throne, and to the

Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,

for ever and ever. Rev.5:13 NIV.

i. honoring Jesus by shouting or even singing His praises?

e.g. In a loud voice they (angels) sang:

Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain

to receive power and wealth and Wisdom

and strength and HONOR AND GLORY

AND PRAISE. Rev.5:12 NIV.

j. verbally ascribing to Jesus absolute worth?

e.g. JESUS: Lord of Lords and King of Kings;

Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last,

The beginning and the end. Rev.20:12

My Lord and my Ho Theos. Jn.20:28

Your name is to be praised O Emmanuel,

Ho Theos with us! Mat.1:23

All power in heaven and earth is Yours;

You created all things; and without you there

was nothing made. Jn.1:3

And Your throne Ho Theos is forever. Heb. 1:8

May all angels and men worship you continually.

Heb.1:6

Even so come Lord Jesus: Rev.22:20 Amen.

Whether or not one acknowledges an ontological unity between Father and Son, it is clear that Jesus accepted the title God (Ho Theos) as part of worship of himself. (Jn 20:28) and we should feel free to address and worship Him as such. Anything less would be to reduce the honor due His name; the name above all names; the name to which angels must bow and to which the Father declares: Thy throne O God (Ho Theos) is forever. After all, Jesus Christ is our Creator. Why would we not worship our Creator as God?

Rick Vanderhoven

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.

Vanderhoven7

The Watchtower of Oct 15, 1945 says of worshipping Jesus,

"Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then

whosoever would worship him must also bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in

that organization, namely Christ Jesus, his co-regent on the throne of

The Theocracy."

The Charter of the WTS, dated Feb 27, 1945, Under article Seven item II.

"The PURPOSE of this Society are; 'To act as the servant of and the legal world wide agency for

that body of persons known as Jehovah's Witnesses..................AND FOR

THE PUBLIC CHRISTIAN WORSHIP OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND CHRIST JESUS......."

Under article Nine the statement is made, "A member may be expelled for

cause upon willfully violating any of these bylaws, reasonable rules, or

ordinances of the Society, or upon becoming OUT OF HARMONY WITH ANY OF

THE SOCIETY'S PURPOSES..."

“” Interestingly, the 1969 Yearbook quotes the Second article of the Charter

in its entirety until it gets to the portion about worshipping Christ

Jesus, where an elipses is judiciously employed to make the portion read,

"and for public Christian worship of Almighty God....",

conveniently editing an inconvenient reminder of the former REQUIRED

belief that it was most proper and necessary to worship Jesus.”

21

I'll always be a failure

by MrFreeze in

i try to make people happy.

sometimes its to my detriment.

above all i'd like nothing more than to make my family happy.

Vanderhoven7

Parental love brings healing. That's the way God planned it. I hope you can forgive your Mom for her misguided rejection and take comfort in the love of the Father.

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

117

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 in

i asked a jw last week the following question, "is revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the lamb or an act of obeisance?.

revelation 5:11-14 nwt states and i saw, and i heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: the lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your kingdom hall.