Posts by rawe

6

God's problem: Randomness

by rawe in

i would like some input on this idea.

i have seen folks speak about god's problem in regards to suffering.

that subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of god most people have and the real world.

rawe

Hi Humbled,

So how do we know that this randomness is random--just because we don't have a theology that encompasses what is going on around us? I guess we are still the center of the universe, huh?

We do seem to want to put limits on God, such as "he cannot lie" or a "God of justice" or "Perfect is his activity". Perhaps doing this can make God seem more coherent. But as soon as he has violated some law of nature when it suits him, it creates the problem of knowledge I am referring to. We believe the sky is blue due to what we know about how light waves scatter in our atmosphere. However, if for some unfathomable reason the sky is really bright green, but God has decided we need to see it as blue it would happen and we would be none the wiser. So it might create the paradox you allude to -- that is what seems random to us, merely reflects the limits of our theology.

Ultimately I think we're still left in a pickle with God interacting with our world. We must concede not only lack of knowledge (i.e. about God's purpose for making a bright green sky appear blue), but more deeply that knowledge about our world is fundementally unattainable.

I try to live now without the theology of the past because I cannot trust it.

However, the laws of nature, to the extent we understand them correctly, are completely trustworhy. We walk around completely confident in the laws of motion and gravity will work from day to day the same.

I see all the random pain and suffering. I live with it. It seems more to the point than ever before that the only thing that lets us transcend chaos is the will to extend kindness, love, in suffering. Jesus taught this.

Amen to that!

He said this is the new command and the singular mark of one who hears and follows Jesus, it is the only thing that can stand in front of the chaos--not the worthless dogma of religious teaching. Who does know God? If th am wondering, if the nature of the universe is this orderly chaos--and we exist in it--well, I've got to deal with it without infusing any intentional, needless suffering into it. Love the creation and love one another.

And this too!

Cheers,

-Randy

6

God's problem: Randomness

by rawe in

i would like some input on this idea.

i have seen folks speak about god's problem in regards to suffering.

that subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of god most people have and the real world.

rawe

Hi Monsieur,

if this is the case, then nothing is trully random.

Exactly, at a certain macro level yes, and it is the only reason why we can make sense of the world. For example, the law of gravity is no where in the discernable universe violated. The path Earth follows through space around the Sun is according to the laws of nature, particularily the law of gravity.

and if this is the case, then 'reality' is trully perception

I not following your logic here. Why would a non-random law-of-nature reality make reality just perception?

What you constitute as randomness or chaos, i can refer to order and design.

As far as I'm aware true random non-predictable events happen basically at the sub-atomic level in the world of quatum mechanics. As we scale up from there to the macro world concrete predictions can be made and shown to be reliable. One must of course remember that as the number of variables start to increase tracking all of them because an impossible task. This can result in what appears to be random, such as weather systems, but they truly are not. I would also concede quantum mechanical randomness might subtly impact larger systems.

injecting God into this mix allows us to decide, take sides to speak.

Injecting God, introduces a law-of-nature violator of unlimited scope and power into our world. If we are trying to understand reality and we're forced to accomodate the God-variable then gaining real knowledge about our world is impossible, is my supposition. This idea builds on a very old Twilight Zone episode I saw where aliens visited humans to tell them they were ending the experiment. After a great deal of begging the alien race allowed humans one more week to present their case for continued existence. At the end of the week, the leader of the UN presented a world-wide iron-clad peace treaty that truly ended all wars. After reading a few pages, then pausing, then smirking, then outloud laughing the alien said...

"You silly humans! We breed warriors! Your puny weapon developments are no good -- and on top of that you long for peace."

Cheers,

-Randy

6

God's problem: Randomness

by rawe in

i would like some input on this idea.

i have seen folks speak about god's problem in regards to suffering.

that subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of god most people have and the real world.

rawe

Monsieur,

"in nature, chaos can reign supreme"

Maybe we're talking about two different things, but I think my view is the exact opposite of that. Other than the essential randomness at the quatum level, in the larger macro world, nature follows laws that cannot be violated.

Cheers,

-Randy

6

God's problem: Randomness

by rawe in

i would like some input on this idea.

i have seen folks speak about god's problem in regards to suffering.

that subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of god most people have and the real world.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

I would like some input on this idea. I have seen folks speak about God's problem in regards to suffering. That subject does raise some serious obstacles between the views of God most people have and the real world. Especially when you consider many who believe in God, also believe he created life, which includes brutal predator-prey relationships and parasites, etc.

However, on this topic, I would like to propose this statement as true:

If one believes in all powerful interactive miracle working God, then one must concede nothing in the world can be known. That scientific knowledge depends upon either God not existing or not interacting with our world in random ways.

Is this true? What is the logical fallacy in this view?

Cheers,

-Randy

73

What on earth happened to the magazines?

by slimboyfat in

for the first time in years today.

to say that it took me five minutes to read the whole thing would be to flatter the rag.

it doesn't even seem to contain actual articles any more, just headings and bullet points and pictures.

rawe

Hi Satanus,

They should be coming out w their own research to combat the ever growing evidence for evolution. While evolutionary evidence piles up, wt creationist evidence, false evidence, is as meagre as it ever was.

Amen!

Cheers,

-Randy

58

What do you think happens when we die?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i'm trying to figure it out.

if we are just dead then there is no point to anything i do.

i'd like to hope our energy goes somewhere... but, i'd like to examine what somebody presents as proof....

rawe

Hi Cognac,

What do you think happens when we die?

Let me give an "Amelia Bedelia" answer: What happens? That depends on many factors. If we die of natural causes then likely some form of funeral arrangement will be made, and our body will be buried or cremated. If we were murdered then likely the police will investigate, an autopsy will be performed, etc.

Of course, I'm sure you mean, what will happen to us as an individual -- is there any possibility of escaping the fate of non-existence? Alas, I think the Amelia Bedelia answer is revealing the truth. When someone close to us dies we experience loss, because in reality the living breathing cognitive person is no longer with us. There is a great scene in the movie Simon Burch where Joe talks about his mother's (played by Ashley Judd) death and how he hung on to the list linger bits of her -- the smell on some of her clothes if I recall correctly.

Beyond that, I don't think we can know. But if death is really non-existence, which is my belief, then all the more reason to enjoy the day!

Cheers,

-Randy

153

The antidote to the myth that JWs are declining

by slimboyfat in

one of the most persistent myths on this website is that jws are already in decline, the rot has set in, and the descent of the watchtower is inevitable from here on in.

unfortunately the facts do not bear this out.

jws are still increasing even in most developing countries, and they are still growing worldwide at a faster rate than the general population.

rawe

Hi Slimboyfat,

"The reality for most of us is that there are more JWs now than when we left, both worldwide and in our own countries."

I really enjoyed your post. I have not read all the replies, so I may repeat some of what has already been said. My dad, even while he was disfellowshipped, use to say, "I can't imagine this system will last too much longer, Armaggedon could be here in as little as six months, no more than two years." He said it so often it became like a family joke. Is something like that at play with us in the Ex-JW community? We soothe our frustrations with the continued success of the Watchtower society by imagining some catclysmic event will soon be their downfall? That there are "signs" of cracks in the wall of dam?

When Ray Franz left, it seemed like a time, when a forceful and authoritative response to the Society was at hand. But in actual fact, the depature of Ray and a few others left the door open for hardliners to take over. Their pounding on pioneering with the suggestion one should "pray to Jehovah and tell him why you couldn't pioneer" actually didn't reveal to the faithful a tyranical force was now taking the lead. No, indeed, it worked! The growth from the 1980s all the way until about 1995 was incredible!

Yet, something is changing, but what it eventually means is hard to tell. I left in 2007 and here are some of the changes I see happening.

1. rebranding: JW.org is in "Watchtower" is out. Perhaps even "Jehovah" is now over-shadowed a bit by "JW" only?

2. cost cutting: Every penny is being looked at. Magazines are now 1/2 the size. Stuff is moving online.

3. more fluff: Less deep Bible study, prophesy, etc.

4. stance against critics, esp online, hardened: DF advice now addresses "email". Apparently direction given not to comment on blogs or edit JW wikipedia articles, etc.

5. legal concerns: More dominate than ever, but seem very wrong-headed. Why designate elders as "pivate investigators" in regards to child sex abuse? Seems certain to land them in more trouble. Why continue to misrepresent medical aspect of blood transfusions? Seems like a dangerous game to play. One successful "wrongful death" lawsuit could spell serious trouble. This could also happen in regards to a connection between suicide and disfellowshipping.

Knowing the harm this religion brings to people, I of course would like to either seem them embrace meaningful reforms or dissolve. But I too think they'll continue more or less as they always have. It is also true there are a lot of nasty things in the world it would be nice to see change or go away.

Cheers,

-Randy

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

rawe

Hi EntirelyPossible,

Can you name one specific prophecy that came true?

After his election as the 3rd president of the Watchtower Society in January 1942, Nathan Knorr, correctly predicted WWII would end. See the talk: Peace Can It Last? ;-)

Cheers,

-Randy

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

rawe

Hi Diest,

We have no NT manuscripts that date before 150 AD

The P52 fragment of John is dated to 125 CE. Dr. Wallace claims one newly discovered papyri dates to first century. See: http://www.dts.edu/read/wallace-new-testament-manscript-first-century/

Cheers,

-Randy

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

rawe

Hi Everyone,

The Bible is a pretty special collection of ancient writings. The silver scrolls of Ketef Hinnom give evidence that at least some of the words found in the Bible date to 600 BCE. No other collection of ancient writings is as widely translated and read in the modern world. On this score, if any book would qualify as the word of God, it would be the Bible. Alas, the original authors, redactors and curators were all men living at a time of limited knowledge and it shows. Their motivations, often self-centered and limited, show as well. Parts of the Levitical law are positively barbaric, such as commanding that men found engaged in a homosexual act should be stoned to death (Lev 20:13).

The creation account of Adam and Eve is presented as real history, with enough date information to place the event around 4000 BCE (4026 by JW reckoning). Likewise the global flood of Noah is presented as a real event around 2300 BCE (2370 by JW reckoning).

Many lines of evidence speak against such history, but probably the two strongest is mitochondrial DNA and layers of ice at the north and south poles. Mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to child unchanged. The father has no way to influence the sequence of mtDNA in a child. So other than the occasional mutation we should all hold near exact copies of mtDNA from Eve and one of the four women who survived the flood. The amount of change in mtDNA indicates the real Eve lived about 100,000 years ago. Yearly layers of snow and ice allow researches at the poles to determine much about the ancient climate. Even more basic is to simply know that the polar ice caps existed far longer than the flood account would allow, considering that ice floats in water. Even if you could come up with some clever way to keep the polar ice caps at the bottom of Noah's ocean or rapidly create them after the flood waters dispersed, it is hard to imagine why none of this would show up in the layers.

Jesus and authors of the NT accepted these OT accounts as real history. At Matthew 5:17, 18 Jesus says basically that -- none of the Law and Prophes would pass away without being fulfilled. At Matthew 24:37-39 Jesus compares 'presence of the Son of man' to the 'days of Noah'. At Christian weddings we often hear the words 'what God has yoked together let no man put apart'. This is from Mark 10:9, however at verse 6 Jesus directly references the creation account in Genesis to make his point.

Finally, I think one of the most relevant things about the NT and our association with Jehovah's Witnesses is the focus on end-of-days. With 2014 just a few months away we're remind of the focus on 1914 as the start of a generation that would not pass away (of course the Bible Students of Russell's day, saw 1914 as the end of a generation). Having left the faith we may now smile at the urgent-yet-not-specific wording used by Witnesses such as 'soon' and 'about to'. Yet, let's no fool ourselves, this is certainly how NT Bible writers felt about their day...

"Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself" - Hebrews 9:26

and this famous one too...

"not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as ? YOU ? behold the day drawing near." - Hebrews 10:25

It is really self-indulgent arrogance on behalf of religious leaders to continously discard the ancient context and reinterpret the "day" to be "current." This has been going on now for nearly 2000 years and will likely continue for the next 2000. In reality, there was no "conclusion of the systems of things" in the way Christians would have thought when Hebrews 9:26 was written. Behold as they might, the "day" was not "drawing near." But one thing is certain, all this focus on a fantasy future can rob us of the precious few years we do have!

Cheers,

-Randy