@tec:
I get that this is off-topic, but ...
Is it merciful to make a df'd person, who has repented and wants to be reinstated, work his/her way back in, continuing to be shunned and forced to sit alone in the back of a room for six months to a year? Or should - keeping in mind Christ's words of forgiveness and mercy (as well as the parable of the prodigal son) - forgiveness as soon as the person has repented?
Yes; the object of mercy with respect to reinstatement is reinstatement. The disfellowshipping is not like a "strike" for a criminal offense. Once repentance has been observed by those observing the disfellowshipped person, he or she must be reinstated. Regardless of what I know some elder bodies have done in the past and are still doing, we discipline; we do not punish.
Let me say that again: We discipline; we do not punish.
I find it interesting that you can apply smoking to 'lack of love for self and others', but you cannot seem to do the same in other aspects, most especially lack of mercy.
I can see no connection with smoking and mercy, and you don't either.
@villabolo:
Listen closely Djeggnog, you abomination of a Watchtower worshipping Pharisee. You are, by virtue of your defense of your demonized organization, an accomplice to their crimes. Thus you make yourself worthy of the same punishment that should be handed out to them.
Ok.
I did notice that you embedded videos into your post; I don't watch YouTube videos. To do that would arguably be socializing with you and I don't wish to do that. I am really speaking to "All" even if the convention here may be to post a message to a particular poster. If there is a question you wish to ask me, or a comment, just summarize for me the point you wish to make and, if you wish me to reply, then you will want to put your point in the form of a question. If I can answer your question, I will.
@tec:
Not saying that sharing the hope of Christ and the Kingdom isn't important, but your wording is misleading in that it makes it seem as if Christ said that the preaching was the second greatest commandment.
I do not desire to mislead anyone, so I take you point and trust that you weren't misled.
@Billy the Ex-Bethelite:
Or maybe the son had been DFd by a JC for attempted suicide (Flock 5:4). Obviously the elders wouldn't want someone suicidal to "contaminate" the flock or bring reproach on the congregation.
What kind of a fool would I be to assume that I know the reasons a Judicial Committee may have disfellowshipped someone? I could guess until I was blue in the face, but I would still be guessing, even if my guess should turn out to be correct. Are you a busybody, @Billy the Ex-Bethelite? (1 Peter 4:15) If you are a gossip type that needs fresh material to spread to those desirous, like you, to know things that you or they aren't entitled to know (because it's not your business or theirs!), I'm ok with that. But I would think it must be pretty hard being you.
@nugget:
Wow, it may be because it is so late at night but your post djeggnog was not always reflective of the current view of the governing body on how to treat Df'd people. In 1974 the rules were not as strict as they are today and certainly the views expressed in such an article would be considered old light. In recent years the current view has been to show a more hard line attitude.
Ok.
The scriptures used to justify the shunning of members who leave have been misapplied and you really need to look into that before quoting them with watchtower rhetoric.
Wouldn't this be your opinion? I don't feel I need to look up anything. I have no interest in discussing with you what is or isn't "old light." BTW, Jehovah's Witnesses retired this expression long ago and anyone that uses it tells me something about the person with whom I'm speaking.
You may sincerely believe what you say I did once but sadly Df'ing and shunning are used by cults to prevent ex-members from letting the current flock know there is a problem with the organisation.
I didn't understand what you were saying in the above-quoted snippet, but I have no interest in discussing with you what it is you think about cults. Your use of the word "cults" here to describe Jehovah's Witnesses suggests that you believe yourself to be superior in some way to me because I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you aren't, and I don't wish to try to diminish in any way this view since you are entitled to believe whatever it is you want to believe about me. I will say though that contrary to what you believe to be true about me as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I do not belong to a cult.
@cantleave:
Eggnog - I was disfellowshipped for "apostasy" because I said I do not [believe] that the FDS's representatives, the governing body, are not gods sole channel of communication on earth. How the hell is that "lawlessness"?
Your saying this does not constitute lawlessness, but I wasn't one of the elders that sat on the Judicial Committee, and I cannot just assume that you were disfellowshipped for just this reason since I wasn't there to hear all of the fact that were lodged against you. But if -- and I mean "if" -- what you are saying to me was indeed the reason you were disfellowshipped, you are going to have to be bigger than you are being, get yourself reinstated and let it go. Jehovah knows exactly what happened in your case, and He has put Jesus Christ in charge of all judgment, and you have to believe that He, too, would be in a position to know what happened in your case. (2 Timothy 4:1)
I refuse to commit [idolatry], and am DF'd for it.
Idolatry? I don't follow.
I can not show repentance for what I did without compromising my belief that the governing body are setting [themselves] up as idols.
I read this above-quoted snippet of yours, but I cannot follow your logic here.
First, you said you didn't believe the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to be God's sole channel of communication on earth. I told you that this statement doesn't constitute lawlessness, because lawlessness is sin.
Now I think that you are telling me that you also told someone -- one or more of the local elders? -- that you believe the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have set themselves up as gods (or "idols"). If this is what you are essentially telling me that you said, this still sounds to me like an opinion, one with which I disagree, but an opinion nonetheless. I see nothing in the statement itself that would merit a Judicial Committee, but, again, I didn't hear your case and do not know all of the facts.
Now if you were sharing this opinion of yours with others in the congregation or outside of the congregation, then it is possible that the local elders might want to know your motive for doing so, and if they determined that your motive or motives were divisive in nature, that they could have admonished you to keep this opinion of yours to yourself, and the matter would have ended there.
However, if you persisted in sharing this same opinion that you just shared with me here with others, then I can see how one could conclude that you were promoting your own sect, which is lawlessness, a sin, for Christians "should all speak in agreement" (Titus 3:10; 1 Corinthians 1:10). If you persisted in sharing this opinion of yours after a second admonition -- some elders might not even think you entitled to receive a second one -- then I can see how the decision to disfellowship could follow such persistence on your part.
Again, I don't know a thing about what occurred in your case, but based on what you have told me here, I have now given you my opinion on a matter of which I must acknowledge my not knowing any of the facts.
@reds:
You obviously know that many here are disassociated or df'd so how do you justify this in your own conscience? Aren't we the very ones that you should shun ?
In my reply to the message posted by @just n from bethel, you may or may not recall my stating the following (and this time without the typo):
You're mistaken to think that you know what I can or cannot do. You talk about "rules," but scriptural advise [...] is often given against our engaging in activities that could potentially affect our spirituality. But maybe someone more mature than you would be able to comprehend what it is I'm saying here to you now. I thought things were laid out quite well in the article entitled, "Maintaining a Balanced Viewpoint Toward Disfellowshipped Ones" [w74 8/1 paragraphs 24-26, pp. 472, 473]. I'm not going to quote anything here from the article, but I would invite you to read it when you have opportunity to do so.
JWN is not an apostates-only-are-welcome website. Maybe you believe it is, but I don't believe it is, and that's important. What you may believe doesn't matter to me; I will be judged not on what you believe to be true, but based on what I believe to be true. (Compare 1 Corinthians 10:29) There's really no need for you to concern yourself with my conscience, ok? I'm going to use this post now to expand upon something I stated in an earlier post.
Are you a lurker in fade? If not, then I'm using your post to speak to those lurking this thread that might be considering leaving Jehovah's organization, but have not, as yet, done so for whatever reason, since I believe many of the "concerns" expressed here are exaggerated and blown out of proportion such that those having less education or who are easily persuaded by the strong-minded opinions of others are more likely than not to become convinced that we are not being used by heaven to preach to good news of God's established heavenly kingdom.
As hard as it has been for some here to imagine, this good news that Jehovah's Witnesses declare enlarges upon the prophecy at Daniel 2:44 which foretells a figurative stone that symbolizes the Messianic kingdom by Jesus Christ that pulverizes the image of gold, silver, copper and iron, which also had feet of iron mixed with clay, that Jehovah caused the Babylonian monarch Nebuchadnezzar to have back in the year 605 BC, some two years after the year when Babylon had taken God's people as exiles. Daniel foretold that in the days of the "feet" of iron and clay, this kingdom "stone" will bring to an end the Seventh World Power of Bible history in which we are now living, as represented by the icon-clay "feet," and become a universal mountain that fills the entire earth. Since 1914, when the appointed times of the nations came to an end, Jesus Christ was then enthroned as king and God's kingdom began to rule from heaven, and based on world events, it is now clear to many that very soon now we will be entering into the Messianic age when God's heavenly kingdom becomes a righteous world government under which its subjects will have the prospect of living forever in peace. As proof that God's kingdom is now ruling, many of the prophecies that were foretold to occur during the Lord's day have undergone fulfillment, such as the events described in Revelation chapter 6:2-8. Despite all of the tribulation that the world's governments are now experiencing with threats of financial collapse and terrorism ever looming in one nation after the next, these things give evidence to those with eyes of faith that the universal "stone" is closer than ever before to rocking the nations.
It is unfortunate though that some of those that had been formerly actively associated with Jehovah's Witnesses have over time allowed to develop in themselves a wicked heart lacking faith so that they have drawn away from serving Jehovah as their God (Hebrews 3:12). As a result, they began to pursue their own selfish desires here on the earth, becoming lovers of pleasures, while totally trashing their relationship with God, seeking out ways to obtain pleasure and being more concerned with owning things, rather than with spiritual matters (Philippians 3:18, 19; 2 Timothy 3: 1-5). They even defile the flesh with greediness as they disregard the governing body elders and local elders upon whom the glory of Jehovah and of Jesus Christ have been bestowed, and speak abusively of such glorious ones, whom the holy spirit has appointed as shepherds over God's flock. (Jude 8; 1 Peter 5:2) True, the elders are all as imperfect as was Moses and yet God uses them, just as He did Moses, to take the lead, and, quite frankly, I don't get how any spiritually-minded person can look down upon these imperfect men without recognizing that their appointment by holy spirit comes from God, for anyone to disregard their "lordship" is to disregard the divinely constituted authority conferred upon them as leaders.
Today, many people that are unemployed, some of them drawing unemployment, some of them not drawing anything, and the concept of "disposable income" is taking on an ominous meaning as every dollar spent must go toward paying for the real necessities of life, like paying the rent or the mortgage, paying the light bill, the heating bill, determining whether one buys food or buyd gas for the car. It's rough for many people, but Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching good news to everyone to let them know that all of God's promises will soon come into fruition when God's kingdom -- that Messianic "stone" -- smashes those "feet" and replaces all of today's governments with one righteous world government, God's kingdom.
No one dying, no one getting sick, no more pain. No more hunger, poverty, slums, homeless people, crime-infested areas, no more droughts and no more deserts to contend with, an earth made new. (Isaiah 35:1, 6; Psalm 72:16)
The good news promises that everyone will have a home to live in, and everyone will have their own farms, their own vineyards, plenty of food for themselves and their families. (Isaiah 65:21, 22) The good news promises that each one will sit under his own property, his own vine and fig tree, and absolutely no one will come around threatening them with eviction or foreclosure. (Micah 4:4)
Look: Jehovah made us and He knows exactly what we need. Jehovah even knows the desires of our hearts, and He has known from the beginning when He set His to establish His universal sovereignty here upon the earth under the Messianic kingdom. These are God's promises to us and they have all become "yes," by means of the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:20)
Jehovah foreknew that hundreds of millions of people would be born until the appointed times of the nations were fulfilled, and He knew that an apostasy from the faith would also flourish during this time period between when Jesus had gone away to a distant land (heaven) to secure kingdom power for himself and his return (Luke 19:12-15), so during this period when Jehovah continued to permit the nations to go their own way (Acts 14:16), Jesus' parable tells us that most of the silver money that he had left with his "ten" faithful slaves to conduct "business activity" with the expectation that it would be invested until his return with kingdom power. Those slaves that came to share the message of the kingdom and about the need to pray for the coming of it with those generations during Jesus' absence were rewarded. (Luke 19:15-19) As for the one slave that did not desire Jesus to be king, his one mina was taken away from him and given to the slave with ten minas that there might be even more increase from his business activity. (Luke 19:20-27)
Since 1914, we have been living during the time of the harvest and the number of workers have always been few (Luke 10:2), but the call for more workers has gone out and over the years many more workers have responded to the call to gather the fruits of the harvest as the various facets of the composite sign of Christ 's presence have come into view. Since 1914, we have come to discern the fulfillment of many of the prophecies in the book of Revelation, which events have served to invigorate many to do more and more to advertise the kingdom as we can see coming into view that majestic "stone." Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed privileged to have been given an understanding of Bible prophecies heretofore not understood until "the time of the end," prophecies that have been "made secret and sealed up" until now, (Daniel 12:4, 9) and with the expansion of our work from one end of the globe to the other end using the internet, there is so much now that we can do "in the work of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58) that we could not do with only 7,100,000+ workers and all of this even Jesus foreknew. (John 14:12) We live in momentous times as we approach the coming great tribulation, and despite the challenges we face daily in the world, by our making the preaching of the good news the central activity in our lives, there really should be no opportunity for our faith to wane or waver.
But for one reason or another, the faith of some has wavered.
This experiment in self-rule over the past 6,036 years of recorded human history has demonstrated man's inability to govern himself. (Jeremiah 10:23) Human beings simply do not want other human beings telling them what to do and how to do things, and they don't want other human beings setting moral or ethical standards for their families. Jehovah made us and so He knows this about our makeup as humans. Those who are conscious of their spiritual need are looking to Jehovah to provide guidance for our lives, and He has accordingly appointed to govern us His Son, Jesus, as Lord. (Matthew 5:3; Acts 17:31; Philippians 2:9-11)
Some are holding fast the public dedication they made and some others have wavered or are wavering; some that have not yet left our ranks have doubts that they are even "in the faith." (Hebrews 10:23; 2 Corinthians 13:5; James 1:6)
Some 36 years ago, many of those that had dedicated themselves to a date -- to the year 1975 -- began to leave the truth, and that was unfortunate, and while some have since returned, they are lukewarm and no longer have the fire or the love of the truth that they had at first. (Revelation 2:4; 3:16) This was a time when the faith of many was tested and some didn't fare well and are gone forever as apostasy has taken hold on them and these folks are never going to return. (Hebrews 6:4-6) I do know this. But those in fade have not yet left and there is still a chance for these to become re-energized in the faith, except, without positive encouragement, it is likely that they will eventually leave Jehovah's organization as well. I also know this.
This is a time of testing.
I do want to encourage anyone having doubts that regularly visit JWN to ask whatever question you feel you need to ask someone, and I will try to answer your question promptly. Since I've made the truth my own, I can often provide the kind of answers in less time than it would take for you to find the answers yourself, especially if you should be depending upon the answers of some here whose answers would be suspect if they happen to have grievances with the WTS (which position I will never understand). Lurkers typically do not participate in any of the threads, which is why they are called "lurkers"; they pretty much just lurk. I don't do emails since that would be a violation of the WTS' guidelines regarding electronic communications, but lurkers can PM me here anonymously; anyone can.
I must be a sadist because I will continue to punish myself & never step foot in a k.h. again & FYI I'm not df'd. We have a freedom here you can't begin to understand. Kudos to Mr. Flipper & all who respond to this sheep that has strayed from the wt pen.
What do you mean? If you are not talking about Christian freedom, which I already have, you're right, I cannot being to understand the kind of "freedom" you have (and I don't need to know). I don't know if you are a sadist, but there is no Watchtower "pen."
BTW, I did find myself wanting to ask @flipper though how he liked the Watchtower article that he reviewed in this thread generally. I know what paragraphs he didn't like, but I did wonder if he agreed with the rest of the article on which he did not post any remarks at all.
@Billy the Ex-Bethelite:
As far as the GB is concerned, saying a greeting to someone disfellowshipped is as bad as abusing a child.
Well, you are entitled to have your own opinions, and this one is evidently something that you choose to believe to be true, but I don't believe this to be true at all. I think what you're doing here is essentially throwing more gas on a burning house while telling everyone that you're trying to douse the flames. Arsonists like seeing things burn and it's clear to me that this opinion of yours is designed to inflame others against the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
@Listener:
Through the [disfellowshipping] process they become judges of men. You talk about repentance but it sometimes has nothing to do with disfellowshipping.
Yes, this is what Jesus directs elders to do at Matthew 18:15-18, to make judgments. They can only observe whether there is repentance over time since repentance is usually not immediately apparent, and you're right. It sometimes has nothing to do with disfellowshipping, but it is typically associated with reinstatement after a disfellowshipping action has occurred. If I'm not coming across here clearly in your mind, please say so.
This is part of 'my story'....
I read your entire post, and what you wrote, I thought, was well-written. When reading it, I was in turmoil for the entire length of time it took me to read it through, because I found myself asking why this had to be a matter for a Judicial Committee. You see, I'm not as intimate with the facts as were those elders that sat on your case. Even your own father wasn't privy to them and he was in a better position than I since he could approach these elders that sat on this committee. I always do the best I can to put myself in the other person's shoes, as it were, to empathize, to imagine what the other person would feel under the circumstances that I am contemplating at the time. But in view of what I've said to you here, I'm going to make the following observations.
Jesus was against delay for delay's sake; he believed we should settle legal matters quickly. (Matthew 5:25) Elders have families and perhaps the three elders that sat on your committee could not devote the time it needed to devote to settling and resolving the issue that you had brought to their attention. This is not to excuse the delay, but maybe the elders were busy handling matters that were more serious than yours.
Second, there is no such thing as "a matter of process." Based on what you were told by your father, the matter should have been decided then and there, not by your father, of course, but by the Judicial Committee that gave your father to understand that 'they had accepted your repentance.' I don't believe this happened at all, for if "they," meaning all three elders, did believe that you were repentant, then what was there left to decide?
I was going to continue past this second point, but I have to stop here. I don't want to put myself in the position of second-guessing the decision-making of other elders because I do not know all of the facts, and assuming that I do know all of the pertinent facts based upon the things you stated in your post is in no way the same as sitting on the Judicial Committee and hearing all of the facts.
You say what happened in your case wasn't Christian; I can neither agree or disagree. You said that "[t]hey are just imperfect men." I can agree with this conclusion. Is this a man's word? The late Godfather of Soul, James Brown, would say, "Yes." But is it really? It is, but, in recognition of the fact that you were dealing with imperfect men, you've got to let it go now. You may have already done so, but if you haven't, letting it go would be my unsolicited advice to you (since you haven't really asked me for my advice).
Thank you for sharing with me your story, @Listener.
@djeggnog
