Because he is already there for some people, including some scientists?
My point is that seeing a designer/creator... does not kill scientific enquiry. In some cases, and for some people, this can FUEL it.
Peace,
tammy
Posts by tec
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96Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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288
Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?
by BU2B ini enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.
i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.
it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.
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tec
If the owners of the forum determine that one cannot hear anything from Christ, in spirit, and ever share it as such... then that is their choice, and it will be done, and I may be banned. Until then (if that ever happens), I do not post to insult or provoke and certainly never to threaten. That some are provoked or insulted... I cannot help that. Many believers are provoked or insulted by things that atheists and/or anti-theists state also. But I am not calling for YOU to go away, even though there are some who do. This board has, from its very inception, always had at least some who speak as they hear from the Spirit. To ban someone for that now, would be making a NEW rule; not enforcing an old one.
Peace,
tammy
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96
Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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tec
If you see DNA and think "designer", rather than "let's investigate how replicating molecules evolved", then you have killed scientific enquiry.
It doesn't have to be one or the other, Cofty.
One can say... 'designer'... AND... 'lets investigate how replicating molecules evolved so that we can understand more about how He did his designing"
There is joy in that, and scientific enqiry.
peace,
tammy
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288
Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?
by BU2B ini enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.
i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.
it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.
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tec
No Band. The truth is, and this from my Lord... it is those who lie and bear false witness against others... who ruin their reputations and/or good name. Not to my Lord because He knows the truth, but to other people. Just as He knows the truth about those whose reputations have been ruined in the wts by those who spread rumors and gossip (in back rooms or even out on the open).
My sister in Christ has never lied nor borne false witness against me. So she cannot have "ruined my reputation". She did, in fact, leave this forum on her own once, in the hopes that people would stop attacking me, because I shared the same faith in the same Lord as she does.
That some do not like me... or my faith... is a matter all its own.
Peace to you,
tammy
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288
Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?
by BU2B ini enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.
i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.
it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.
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tec
For some reason, the members left b/c people here were not signing up to join them. They wanted a place where no one would challenge them. I visited for a while. The forum became locked to outsiders. Recently, some members of the "believers" forum returned to JWN. The same demands as before are being made. They evidently want Simon to segregate a portion of JWN so no one can challenge them.
None of this is true.
I would like to hear their reasoning.
This statement confuses me, considering your other comments. How would you like to hear such reasoning? From scripture?
Peace,
tammy
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288
Is it just me or has this site become a Believer/Atheist warzone?
by BU2B ini enjoy the odd thread about evoloution vs creation, etc but lately it seems that a large percentage of threads here devolve into fighting between atheists and theists and distract from what most of us here see eye to eye on, the wt and related things.
i wish things could be more civil here and fr people to realize that people will never see eye to eye on the topic.
it gets so tiring to see the contstant bickring and fighting on those threads.. they seem to go on page after page but very little of substance is discussed seeing as the existence or non existence of a god can be proven by anyone.
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tec
To the OP... this forum has always had believer/non-believer debates. I think one of the longest threads (well, that I know of) is on the quesiton of evil in the world, and it of course became a believer/non-believer thread that ran close to, I think, 200 pages? I could be remembering that wrong, because that seem a bit extreme, lol. In any case, sometimes there are 'flare-ups' and sometimes it is calmer, but those debates are always here. I am really glad to hear that some enjoy them, because often we (the believers and the non-believers) enjoy the debate as well. When they degrade, not so much. But in real life, in conversations with friends/etc... these get heated there as well. Doesn't have to mean that two people are enemies.
Band on the Run.
Peace to you. I am not going to address everything in your post, but only that which applies to me and to my faith and my Lord. Others may feel free to skip over this if you do not care. By all means.
I fear that certain people who call themselves believers who claim that Christ talks to them are recruiting members here. They started their own forum.
I fear that you are buying into the propaganda and rumors that a handful of people like to spread about... either in the open, or behind the scenes, or on other forums. (which you yourself have firsthand knowlege of) I am not even sure what you mean by 'recruiting members'.
When they post content here, they should people to respond bc this forum is called a discussion form.
Not sure what you mean here.
I did not leave the Witnesses to pat someone who hears voices from Christ on the back.
No one has ever asked or expected you to do so. It is your own perception, perhaps in part endorsed by what those few others say. It did not come from us.
My first post here was a bit scary for me.
No doubt. But the post you are referring to (when you were responded to by Aguest) was not your first post. But at some point, yes, the content of your post was debated. As is ours every day, even by you.
Someone who hears voices directly from Christ but not Christ.
Christ is Christ. There is no... Christ but not Christ.
She gives him another name.
Christ is not a name, but a title. The name, Jaheshua (pronounced like Y'eshua... so that it is Yaheshua... and there is MUCH backing for Yeshua as being the Hebrew name) is the one he gave her. She did not give him that name.
Scriptures could not be referenced b/c some scriptures are recognized by this group while others are not valid b/c of the Christ but not Christ's oral directions to the poster.
Scriptures can ALWAYS be referenced. The problem is... the verses, words, examples from the bible... do not contradict with a living, speaking Christ. Exactly the opposite in fact. They show that Christ IS alive and DOES speak, as is clearly shown in the examples given of people hearing Him after his death and resurrection.
So scriptures "cannot be referenced" only because the scriptures themselves would disprove any argument that you or another would attempt to make against a living and speaking Christ.
By all means... reference scriptures if you must.
I never found that these members posted that this is my belief. No, it was always you cannot have another belief that contradicts my oral directions from whatchamacallit.
No... that was never posted. You can have any other belief that you want to have. You cannot have any other belief you want to have and have that belief validated, though, by someone who has come to know otherwise. But you never heard from any of us that you cannot have another belief that contradicts with anything we have heard from Christ. What we cannot do is agree with something that you believe - and post - if it is against what we hear from our Lord.
If you or anyone thinks that is wrong... then you should probably stop speaking against anything the wts believes, that you now know is false, also. Because that is their belief, right?
As an active Christian, I found these voices disruptive.
There is only one voice, and this is the same voice that Peter, Paul, John, Cornelius, Phillip, Stephen, Ananias, etc (just to name a few from what IS written)... heard. It is more the response to this truth that makes this disruptive. But what can you do? As you said, this is a discussion forum.
I must state that Tammy is the exception. She never was aggressive. If I posted information from a standard academic seminary text, I was corrected. B/c the voices heard from Christ yet not Christ were so intensely personal and bizarre, there was nothing to discuss.
I must state that the content and message that I share is no different than the content and message that the one you butted heads with stated... because we listen to the SAME Lord. (though she tends to hear more) Some might prefer a different tone or personality. Because we all respond to different things, hence there are many different members of the One Body of Christ, each with their own personality, albeit being One in Christ. But the one thing that should matter above and beyond style or tone or personality, or one who is seeking Christ and truth... is TRUTH.
Peace to you, and ears to hear if YOU wish them, so that you may also hear the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life." Because that water of life, and that call to come to the water of life, is also for you; from the Spirit, from the Bride, and from all who hear.
tammy
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96
Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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tec
TEC, did you see just a bunch of bad words, and respond to it?
No. Delusion (as a pathology) is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information.
So having been in the wts does not have to mean that you were deluded... you just had false or incomplete information.
Peace,
tammy
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96
Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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tec
Not going down that road when I did not bring it up, Adamah.
But truth is truth even if it has not yet been tested and verified by the scientific community. I have no problem with anyone who wants to go only with what has been tested and verified, and so accepted by the scientific community. It is 'safe'... albeit limited to the currently accepted scientific knowledge, which will change as evidence and tools to find newer evidence are discovered/created. (not necessarily reverse, but grow and expand and become fuller, and possibly shed new light - not a pun on the jw nu lite - on other things as well) That is not a rebuke against science at all. It is simply a fact.
But to tell someone of faith that the only honest statement that they can make is the one stated from the OP (or something similar to it) regarding being delusional... is asking them to be dishonest. When they won't submit... because they cannot without being dishonest... then they are often insulted or ridiculed or demeaned further.
Putting a spin on Laika's comment, I could say this:
"I am willing to accept that you believe I am deluded; but I cannot honestly agree with your belief."
Peace to you,
tammy
*edited to add that I probably could not say that to everyone; I do not believe that everyone who calls a person of faith deluded actually believes that, themselves.
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96
Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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tec
and this:
As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.
Peace,
tammy
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96
Phizzy Said this......And I am afraid I disagree
by KateWild ini still find it strange that believers cannot get it in to their heads that atheism is not a belief, but theism is.
there cannot possibly be proof "for" the atheistic position as it is simply a position that says i see no proof for a god.. if someone says there are pink unicorns with purple spots and i say i have never seen any proof of their existence, i cannot offer proof of my "position", the onus is 100% upon the spotted unicorn guy to prove their existence to me.
simple.. where the frustration enters in for us non-unicornists is when the unicornists expect us to listen to inane arguments , non facts and plain nonsesnse and then go along with their delusion.
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tec
Why are not believers simply honest and say "What I believe in is Delusion, but I choose to continue". I would respect that honesty,
Everything tornapart said, regarding the above being DISHONEST.
Because making that statement would not be honest for me either... it would be a lie. Why should I have to lie for someone else to think I am being honest?
The honest position for an atheist to take is that he sees no evidence for God. Since that is what (many) atheists claim, then there isn't even a conflict with that position/statement and somene of faith. One person may have or see evidence that another does not have, or see... and that would not make the object of evidence any less true. But the fact that (many) atheists have to call any position of strong faith dishonest and deluded... well, that is started to make me think that the claim/statement does not fit what some atheists truly think.
Peace,
tammy