Posts by tec

54

For people who use the OT to try and prove that God is an awful tyrant...

by tec in

the people in the ot made mistakes about what god wanted and expected from them.

some of the laws that were given were in place because they were too hard-hearted to accept anything more merciful.

jesus clearly states this:.

For people who use the OT to try and prove that God is an awful tyrant...

by tec in

the people in the ot made mistakes about what god wanted and expected from them.

some of the laws that were given were in place because they were too hard-hearted to accept anything more merciful.

jesus clearly states this:.

Chris - I did not mean to imply that the events recorded in the OT never occurred- only that the views of the Israelites upon those events may have been skewed. The Israelites were ordered to wander the desert for forty years because that generation of people did not have faith in God, or in what God had promised them. Was it harsh? Perhaps. But life is hard. So it isn't the state of our circumstances that matters, but rather the state of our hearts that is important.

The entire point that I was trying to get across was that the Israelites did make mistakes in their understanding and applying of the law. Jesus came as a light, to show us the truth about his Father. So it is to Christ that any Christian (a follower of Christ, not a follower of some organization) must look to understand God.

But perhaps that was too general a statement, too much of a band-aid type thing. So I'll elaborate.

a) I've already established that there were mistakes in the understanding and applying of the law.

b) We do not know the hearts and minds of the surrounding nations in the OT. War is ugly and brutal, no matter the intents or circumstances. The surrounding nations could have committed far worse atrocities than anything the Israelites did - we know that they did perform child sacrifice. Unchecked, we have no idea what they may have done or continued to do. Only God knows, and it is presumptuous to think that we - in our few years and limited perspectives - could judge the one who knows the hearts of every man and the one who has witnessed our history firsthand. Even if we just consider today... that's the hearts and minds of 6 billion men, women and children that God can see into. That's quite a perspective compared to our own.

c) We cannot comprehend what God has planned. We can't even know firsthand what death is until we are dead, or understand what the resurrection or heaven fully holds for us. God might not view physical death in the same way that we do. Job prayed to go there until God's wrath had passed. Also Isaiah says in 57: 1-2: 'The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart: devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared form evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.'

Because of these many things, we cannot know God, except through what Christ came and showed us.

How angry do we personally get when another person judges us? Their views might be wrong or based on hearsay. They haven't walked in our shoes, nor seen into our hearts, nor do they have any idea what our thoughts and plans for the future might be.

Imagine God... been here from the start; knows the hearts and minds of all; has tried to teach us how to live good lives over and over again, and we have misapplied his law and ignored his attempts to correct us... even before Jesus. (ex. Micah 6:8 - He showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God) But we are quick to refuse to listen, and just as quick to blame him for our suffering after we reap the results of having ignored him.

Now here we are in a world of our own making, judging and condemning God - without knowing his *heart* (or the hearts of those he has judged), nor having walked in his *shoes* - and ignoring the one man he sent to teach us the truth, and to show us that, even after all of this, He offers us grace and forgiveness and life without cost.

My heart bleeds - for God and for us - and I don't know what else to say.

Tammy

23

Just had JW come to the door to invite me to memorial

by tec in

jw
friends

this is the first time that i ever refused to go the memorial.

usually i make excuses or fall back on the 'maybe'.

in fact, i have never stated an opinion that differs with anything that a jw at my door says.

tec

I don't mind at all, Sylvia :) Thank you. The affection is returned. Your posts are always kind and sincere!

I hope all the best for you and your daughter.

Tammy

20

Resistance to WT

by snowbird in

after reading the threads on fading vs speaking out openly against wt policies, i was struck by how similar this is to the underground railroad during slavery, and later, resistance to jim crow.. in both situations, some jumped at the opportunity to escape bondage or oppression.

others chose a more indirect approach and were often reproached for doing so.. in the case of the underground railroad, several factors kept slaves rooted to the plantation - fear of the unknown, concern for families left behind, a sense of loyalty and indebtedness to their masters, a deep hope that things would, must, get better.. resistance to jim crow operated along similar lines.

those who had the least to lose were at the front of the battle.

tec

*My post was not to discourage speaking, but to submit that there are different ways of speaking.*

Agreed, and I think you submit your point very well in this clear and meaningful sentence.

Thanks, Sylvia.

23

Just had JW come to the door to invite me to memorial

by tec in

jw
friends

this is the first time that i ever refused to go the memorial.

usually i make excuses or fall back on the 'maybe'.

in fact, i have never stated an opinion that differs with anything that a jw at my door says.

tec

Thanks everyone for the advice and encouragement! I will work on remaining calm and clear-headed, and reading the experiences posted throughout JWN helps. For Wobble and all of you with family inside the WT, I can only imagine how hard it must be to express your different beliefs to loved ones. Especially since leaving the WT might seem like a personal rejection of them as well, making them even more defensive and adding to the emotion of the exchange.

I admire your strength.

Tammy

23

Just had JW come to the door to invite me to memorial

by tec in

jw
friends

this is the first time that i ever refused to go the memorial.

usually i make excuses or fall back on the 'maybe'.

in fact, i have never stated an opinion that differs with anything that a jw at my door says.

tec

This is the first time that I ever refused to go the Memorial. Usually I make excuses or fall back on the 'maybe'. In fact, I have never stated an opinion that differs with anything that a JW at my door says. I nod politely, smile and listen... they certainly take enough punishment from the people who insult them, slam doors in their faces, and curse them out.

But she handed me and invitation, and asked if I might go. This time I answered calmly... no, I won't be attending. She got a puzzled look on her face - she knows I did an extended bible study with another woman and very nearly joined. So I explained that I did not believe that only the 'anointed class' should receive the emblems. (I had to ask what the *emblems* were called, because I didn't know, so at least she was engaged in what I was saying) I told her that the one memorial I did attend made me feel like I was somehow less and *left out*. I quickly explained that I had not forgotten the teaching about the anointed going to heaven, and the rest of us being resurrected on earth. I said I just didn't see that when I read the bible.

She then asked, So you believe some parts of the bible and not others?

I repeated, No... I just don't see what you see, when I read the bible.

She said that she had never of anyone feeling the way I described. She seemed sincere when she said it. And at that point, my husband came downstairs- I believe the witnesses know that he doesn't like them coming here. So we said goodbye until next time.

Personally, I think it was a good thing that my husband interrupted any additional discussion. I have a habit of putting my foot in my mouth when I get emotional about something - and I was shaking after just this one assertion - and then my words get clumsy. But this way, she left, hopefully with a thought she never heard before, and I didn't get a chance to screw that up. :)

54

For people who use the OT to try and prove that God is an awful tyrant...

by tec in

the people in the ot made mistakes about what god wanted and expected from them.

some of the laws that were given were in place because they were too hard-hearted to accept anything more merciful.

jesus clearly states this:.

tec

Piercingtheveil81, thank you for adding your perspective to this thread, and an interesting perspective it is... ExJW Muslim. I agree with you that the apparent difference between OT God and NT God is confusing. I also agree, if I understood you right, that the conflicts we find are something that man created by their own misconceptions.

By the time of Jesus, Judaism had become an organization of leaders who no longer practiced what they preached, and who no longer cared about the people under their charge. So rather than softening the perspective of 'God', I believe Jesus came to recover what was lost... and that included the laws of love, mercy and compassion. Those who follow Jesus are meant to reflect those laws, which might be why the views of Christianity seem softened. But in reality, those laws were in place from the very beginning.

Tammy

54

For people who use the OT to try and prove that God is an awful tyrant...

by tec in

the people in the ot made mistakes about what god wanted and expected from them.

some of the laws that were given were in place because they were too hard-hearted to accept anything more merciful.

jesus clearly states this:.

tec

Cameo-

God would not and has not done any of the things you asked.

People have done these things.

Religious organizations that abuse the trust of the people turning to them have done these things.

The WT has done these things.

54

For people who use the OT to try and prove that God is an awful tyrant...

by tec in

the people in the ot made mistakes about what god wanted and expected from them.

some of the laws that were given were in place because they were too hard-hearted to accept anything more merciful.

jesus clearly states this:.

tec

You really need to get your facts straight. It's rather silly to think you know the minds of "that entire line of jews" and that you claim "they believed that Moses gave them that law." Uh, no they did not. My point is that if you don't do some fact finding before you post, you are not credable. - Cameo

I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking if I was sure there was a law saying circumcise on the eighth day, and I was focused on answering that. I didn't realize that I had written that Moses gave them circumcision in my response. I did know that Abraham gave them circumcision. But the entire line of the scripture that I quoted in my opening post actually begins with Jesus saying, "Yet because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath..." I only said the jews believed Moses gave them circumcision because Jesus says it here.

Notverylikely - You asked why would God choose the jews as his people if they were hard-hearted jerks? God was honoring the promise he made to Abraham regarding his descendants; a righteous and faithful man who was not a hard-hearted jerk.

Sylvia - I just finished re-reading the prologue to John. It is a beautiful opening, isn't it?

Gladiator - Thanks for your kind words. But you see, I cannot say that I love and trust Jesus for his teachings and example on compassion, love and mercy and then turn around and not trust his testimony about his Father. It was easy to love Jesus when I first learned about him, and the things he stood for. But I was still frightened of the God portrayed in the OT. Until one day I suddenly thought... 'but Jesus LOVES his Father. Jesus said that everything he taught came from his Father; that if we had seen Jesus, then we had seen the Father.' So if I'm going to trust Jesus, then I have to trust him in entirety.

Does hell exist?

by notverylikely in

thread for nasticanasta to have at with proof that it does..

tec

I don't think there is any evidence or even proof of a literal hell of eternal, fiery torment. It contradicts any sense of justice... what would be the point in people suffering for eternity? Are they learning a lesson for their betterment? It also contradicts the laws of love and mercy.

But we can be in 'hell' now if we are separated from the love of God. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man more likely meant that the Kingdom of Heaven was being taken from the Pharisees/teachers/hypocrites in the law who had the kingdom and abused it; and then given to the poor man (humble in spirit, etc.) who would produce its fruit. Ie... care for the poor, show mercy and love, etc. The loss would be a torment... hence all those sayings about gnashing of teeth (envy/jealousy) for those thrown outside the kingdom.

Since Jesus came and condemned those hypocritical teachers, whilst favoring the poor and the sinners who were willing to hear his message, this seems to make more sense. At least to me.

Tammy