joe alward.
i recall last year someone cited a particular passage in the new world translation that showed that jesus was jehovah.
can anyone recall which one that was?
Whether Jesus is Jehovah or the other way round does not have much to do with the WT's SEVERE LACK of credibity, integrity and sincerity
Hi Will Power,
Unfortunately what you say is just about the state of things. I think we have all basically concluded this is one that will get thrown back (i.e. good fish vs bad fish).
Canon
joe alward.
i recall last year someone cited a particular passage in the new world translation that showed that jesus was jehovah.
can anyone recall which one that was?
Hi Joe....
You nailed it, BlueBlades. Those are the passages I was looking for.Thanks
Not sure if all witnesses can explain this one, but many think this is a verse that proves Jehovah is Jesus. If I'm not mistaken the witnesses back off and claim the reference is always to Jehovah but clearly it is not. For a specific explanation I'd check out the "Revelation Book" which does a verse by verse of Revelation.
Howver, the verses do not prove Jesus and Jehovah are the same person if the idiomatic expression "alpha and omega" are used in the context of a reference to uniqueness. That is, a unique entity is the first and last of that series, the A to Z of that series, the beggining and end of that series, etc.
In that sense, therefore, Jesus as the ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON is the "alpha and omega" of his type or kind, that is, the only archangel and the only being created directly by Jehovah. Thus when "alpha and omega" is not used as a TITLE, but as a descriptive reference, it applies to Jesus since he is unique. Obviously, Jehovah is also unique. So both are especially "alpha and omega" with reference to their being unique, particularly in relation to intelligent creatures which would include all mankind and the angels.
Thus being unique, the beginning and end of your type, the "alpha and omega" of their genre does not make you the same individual.
As usual, often, very often, not fully understanding scripture or language applications or only superficially examining details sometimes make it appear there are contradictions or errors when there are not.
Canon
often as witnesses, we were told of people who started studying the bible (in reality wt literature) and were amazed at what they learned.
you know the sort of thing i mean i have been going to church for years and never knew that.. .
however, in my recent studies, particularly of the book of john, i have felt the same way.
What I really need is someone to have a go at putting together an actual chronology for the period Nisan 13/14/15 in some sort table that is easy to read. Now there’s a challenge!
John 19:14's reference to the trial being "preparation for passover" is mistranslated or inadquately translated. The Greek is "de (but) preparation for passover". When "de" is used in front of a designated time of the day or a certain special day it's a reference to just before that time. Thus Jesus' trial at Noon "de preparation for passover" was BEFORE the preparation day for Passover which began that evening. Since we know that Jesus ate the actual passover on Nisan 14/15 this could not be the day BEFORE Nisan 14, which is "preparation for passover."
But the term "preparation for passover" is a term that refers to the day before the special sabbath of passover and thus can apply to either of the two high sabbaths of Passover. One sabbath of passover was Nisan 15 and the other Nisan 21st. That is, the first and 7th days of the passover week. Therefore, John 19:14's reference would refer to the afternoon before the second "preparation for passover" sabbath, which is Nisan 20th, so in effect, the trial was at Noon on Nisan 19th.
This harmonizes completely with other chronology associated with Jesus' death. One critical note being that Jesus must die ON PREPARATION before a sabbath day. What witnesses and many others don't understand is that Passover when eaten after sundown is actually eaten on the sabbath day of the 1st day of Passover. If you will check Exodus 12 you'll see that the first of the seven days of Passover begins not on Nisan 15 but on "Nisan 14, in the evening." Exodus 12:18 - "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down til the twenty-first day of the month, in the evening. Seven days..."
So basically, Jesus was arrested on the first day of unfermented cakes, the very night the Jews left Egypt which was not Nisan 14 but Nisan 15! (Numbers 33:3) Since this was a Saturday AND a sabbath day in 33CE, there is no way Jesus could have died the same day he was arrested and still be in the tomb for "three days and three nights".
But when you date Jesus' trial correctly at Noon on Nisan 19th, before preparation for the sabbath of the 21st, then Jesus dies at Noon the following day, Nisan 20th. He is put into the tomb before sundown which begins a sabbath day. But this is not the usual Saturday sabbath but a "high sabbath" which is the term the Jews use to refer to a special sabbath that is not a Saturday, like any of the special holidays or one of the two special sabbaths of passover. Thus this "high sabbath" reference is to the high-sabbath of Nisan 21st, which was a Friday. This sabbath was thus followed by a second sabbath, that Saturday, the 22nd. It is in this way, with two sabbaths back to back that Jesus can die one day before a sabbath and rise one day after a sabbath and still be in the tomb for parts of THREE NIGHTS. Those three nights are Thursday night (Nisan 20/21), Friday night (Nisan 21/22) and Saturday night (Nisan 22/23).
That's the long and short of it. And this dating has tested true for all other references though unfamiliarity with the true ritual of passover and the way the Jews calculated their dates and dating makes some things confusing. But for your further information, there are some key points:
1. Jesus was arrested at night on the sabbath day of Nisan 15th, a Saturday. That is the day that the Jews had a special "solemn assembly" at Noon in which they partook of a special sabbath meal. The reference for when Jesus appeared before Pilate which was "de early" is a reference to just before the "early EVENING" watch. There were three "evening watches" of 3 hours each. Early from Noon to 3:00 p.m. Mid-evening from 3:00 to sunset, and "late" which was from sunset to 9:00 p.m. Thus "de early" was just before noon when they were to eat the special passover Noon meal. Thus that was the reason the Jews around Noon didn't want to defile themselves for eating this passover meal. It was not a reference to the Seder passover meal that had obviously already been eaten.
But just to assure you that more than just one day was involved from the time Jesus ate the meal until he died, note that Jesus is impaled per Mark 15:25 at the "third hour" which is 9 o'clock but his trial was at Noon, the 6th hour. Further, at the same sixth hour it got dark, remember? So how can Jesus be on trial at the sixth hour and it get dark with him already on the torture stake? I doesn't work! Thus the true chronology of events as you requested are briefly as follows:
CHRONOLOGY OF LAST PASSOVER WEEK:
Nisan 14 in the morning Jesus sends John and Peter to prepare for traditional passover. One of them has to take the lamb to the temple to be sacrifices where the sacrifices begin specifically around 3:00 p.m. to fulfill the "between the two evenings" reference. The first evening was at Noon and the second evening at sunset, so BETWEEN the two evenings was a reference to 3:00 p.m. That's is the same time Jesus died 7 days later on the subsequent day of preparation.
After sundown of Nisan 14th (note the precise date did not change until Midnight per ancient Jewish tradition, it was still Nisan 14 until midnight), the sabbath began. This was the first day of unfermented cakes. Thus the Seder meal is actually eaten on a sabbath day. This was Friday night, 33CE.
Judas left "de night" which is a reference to just before the night watch which was from 9:00 p.m. to Midnight. The others remained in the room per Jewish tradition until Midnight when the meal ends.
After Midnight Jesus goes into the garden of Gethseme and sometime before 3:00 a.m. he is arrested.
Right at sunrise, he is taken to the Sanhedrin and interrogated. This takes nearly 6 hours.
Right before Noon ("de (but) early") he is taken before Pilate which is the usual time Pilate sees the people, around Noon. The Jews don't enter into the palace since it is still the sabbath of the first day of unfermented cakes and they had to remain clean in order to partake of the special sabbath meal at Noontime. Jesus is interrogated and they tease him that afternoon until Pilate finds out he is from Galilee and then sends him to Herod.
Herod was not expecting him and may not have seen him or set up any special trial for him until the next day or even the following day. But Jesus was in custody with Herod right up until it was time for him to return for his trial in order to qualify to be released. This is the day that Herod and Pilate became friends, sometime Wednesday morning, Nisan 19, when Jesus was returned. Jesus' trial proceeded at Noon and he was condemned to die. This was Noon, "de preparation for passover", that is, before preparation for the passover of Nisan 21st, thus before Nisan 20th. Jesus was again teased and near sundown when workers were coming from the fields he was taken out to Cavary to be impaled. Simon of Cyrene, likely a day worker working in the barley harvest was employed to help Jesus with his torture stake.
By 9:00 p.m., the third hour, Jesus was now impaled. After sundown it was now "preparation". Jesus thus remained on the torture state all that night until the next morning. At Noon it got dark until around 3:00 p.m, the 9th hour when he died.
Between the 9th hour and sundown, Jesus was put into the tomb which began the countdown of the THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS. This was the first DAY.
Jesus remained in the tomb that NIGHT, Nisan 20/21 - Night 1,
...the following day, Nisan 21---day 2
..the following night, Nisan 21/22 - night 2
..the following day, Saturday, Nisan 22nd - day 3
...and that following night, Saturday, Nisan 22/23 - night 3.
Jesus rose before 3:00 p.m. at night, early Sunday morning before day, Nisan 23.
He then appeared to his disciples over the next 40 days until 3 days before Pentecost when he ascended to Heaven. Three days later (rather than 10 days later) Holy Spirit descended upon the 120 in the upper room.
Hope this was of help.
Canon
scholar,.
i noticed that you saw it fit to respond to alan f's and hillary steps most reasoned arguments in the 607bc thread.
i also noticed that you said you would destroy my humble and simple arguments in that same thread.
Hi Farkel-guy....
This was pretty simple, I thought. Only Fred Franz tried to muddle it all up. ANY calendar in the world that worked on only 360 days per year would eventually have summer months end up being winter months and vice versa. With a five and a quarter day loss each year it doesn't take a dummy to figure out that in just four or five months, October would be September and four or five months later September would be August.
This statement MISREPRESENTS what the WTS teaches. That's because they use 360-day year to CALCULATE the number of years but when APPLIED, they use regular solar years or the luni-solar years which is the same calendar the Jews use. The Jews use a lunisolar calendar.
Or in other words, when calculating for years in prophecy, the Bible rounds off each month to 30 days and each year to 360 days to calculate a "time". So that 7 times is 2520 days which is then converted to 2520 years. But when you actually start to apply those years, they are applied to LUNISOLAR years, that is, basically regular years of 365-1/4 days.
Now you might not like this application, but that's not the point here. The point here is that the WTS teaches this conversion to the lunisolar year when applying the 2520 years, which is something you're not addressing. You're finding fault with the calculation pre-conversion, which is a valid criticism IF they did not themselves understand they must make the conversion to regular years.
You're missing a step the society uses in making the application. Franz is not confused about this, he understands the 360-day year has to be converted to a regular solar year.
You're criticizing the WTS for something they do not teach in this case.
Again, feel free to disagree with it, but you're misrepresenting what they actually teach, so your argument is a "straw man" argument. You're knocking down a straw man that you've invented yourself that is not relevant to what the WTS actually teaches/practices with the chronology.
Cannon
scholar,.
i noticed that you saw it fit to respond to alan f's and hillary steps most reasoned arguments in the 607bc thread.
i also noticed that you said you would destroy my humble and simple arguments in that same thread.
NO! They were ALL lunar months! So the "calender" intepreted by Fred Franz was not only one that isn't used in modern times, but wasn't even used by the Jews in ancient times! As this phony "ancient" calendar was using to predict a modern date using a modern calendar!
Hi Farkel-da-man!
Not so sure if this was a quote from you or not, but...
The actual calendar used by the Jews was a LUNISOLAR calendar which included 13 months some of the years.
Thus the WBTS reference to the calculations, which is just an interpretation, especially since the Bible rounds off things, such as each month 30 days and every 3-1/2 years as 1260 days OR 1290 days, is to calculate the years and months based upon the 1260 days but then when applied use the standard lunisolar years. Thus the times are representative and not precise.
But this is as close as one can get to this since "intepretation belongs to God" and thus all we can do is make comparisons to determine what might be the correct interpretation, but obviously there is room for more than one calculation.
BUT GENERALLY, the Bible acknowledges the lunisolar year in the 1260 days and the 1290 days reference to the same period of "times, time and half time" (Daniel 12) which makes the two interchangeable, depending.
But the WTS basically admits that they first CALCULATE the years based upon 1260 for 3.5 years or 360 for a "time" but when those years are played out, they are played out in LUNISOLAR years.
Thus, in case you hadn't noticed, with some months being 29 days and some 30 days, 12 x 12 months of exactly 30 days is 360 days a year, thus a 12-month year of lunar months is going to be less than 360 days per year for the 12-month year. But the SOLAR YEAR is 365-1/4 days as you noted, which is more than 360 days a year. BUT....when the alternating 13-month lunar year arrives, you have a 385-390 day year (1 month of 30 days added to 360 is 390).
But, in the greater scheme of things, therefore, the ACTUAL CALENDAR THE JEWS USED, which was the adjustable lunisolar calendar, about every 19 years the adjusting lunar years and the solar years equal nearly the same amount of time.
So again, the WTS RULE is when calculating the years, use 30 days per month, 360 days per year and 1260 or 1290 days for 3.5 years. But when applying the time, use regular solar years or lunisolar years which are basically the same if more than 19 years.
So the "phony ancient calendar" remark is not exactly applicable for the WTS method of dating, since the Jews themselves were not on a strictly lunar month calendar which seems to be what you are implying. If I've misunderstood you, then I apologize. Please elaborate if you wish.
Thanks, Farkelman!!
Cannon
scholar,.
i noticed that you saw it fit to respond to alan f's and hillary steps most reasoned arguments in the 607bc thread.
i also noticed that you said you would destroy my humble and simple arguments in that same thread.
Hi Farkel-Pianoman!
I noticed that you saw it fit to respond to Alan F's and Hillary Steps most reasoned arguments in the 607BC thread. I also noticed that you said you would destroy my humble and simple arguments in that same thread. You never came back to either rebut or destroy my simple arguments. You pee-peed in your pants, scholar.
You didn't give a link reference to the previous discussion. I'd like to know what kinds of arguments the WBTS is coming up with as well with all the new info we have. Guess I could go back and look up the thread but it's possible there are more than one and it's not the one you are specifically referring to. Can you provide a reference to the previous discussion please? Sounds like it's involved. Thanks!
Cannon
P.S. You're fortunate to have a real grand piano to play on (right); but the keyboards models they have out now give you the same sound! It's amazing! My "grand piano" fits neatly in my closet!
i need to know when the wts started to use bce/ce instead of bc/ad.
was this because secular chronology is said to be out by 2 years, and that jesus was really born in 2bc?
so what year did all this start?
BCE is more of the formal industry standard and JWs may have just been going "conventional" with this. BAR (Biblical Archaeology Review), for instance, insists upon BCE and CE because it is non-demonational. Basically Jews would have a problem with "before Christ" rather than "Before Common Era".
The witnesses didn't invent the term, nor do I think they have qualms about using either since they are Christian-based, Christ believers, etc.
J-
jgnaut, .
: much of the hebrew scriptures is a dispassionate account of israels history.
most of the hebrew scriptures is total bullshit written after-the-fact so that israel could make them look better in history than they actually were.
Can anyone prove creation?
Lots of things can't be PROVEN by scientific method, such as whether or not I walked across a paved road. Does that mean it didn't happen?
I think the believers continue to believe, not because there is no found or reported "evidence" of some of the things in the Bible, but because there is yet nothing that disproves conclusively what they believe in.
Did the Israelites trek for 40 years in the wilderness? No evidence? Maybe they were a clean people and cleaned up before they left!
Proof so is not absolute proof not..
JCanon
i wonder if you'll be able to give the.
answer...day /month/year!!!.
i'm sure that you all had the "correct answer " .
The idea that Satan was hurled down to the earth in the 1st Century is non-Biblical.
After Jesus was resurrected, he was to be at the right hand of God, waiting, until his enemies were made a stool for his feet. Obviously, there would be a waiting period before that happened.
Revelation, furthermore, associates the expulsion of Satan from heaven in conjunction with the establishment of the kingdom and thus the end of the gentile times which didn't occur until at the time of his second coming.
Therefore, while Jesus could anticipate Satan falling from heaven, that was prophetic assurance of when that would occur later.
As far as the exact date Satan was ousted from heaven, per the eagle-anointed class (JIOR) it was December 25, 1992, the Biblically correct date for the end of the gentile times per the 7 times prophecy when you correctly date the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE; and sorry, that IS the right date unless you want to debate me about it, in which case you will lose, I have my research complete in that area.
Anyway, Jesus was not to come until near the END of the last generation, not the beginning.... 1992 is the correct date. 1914 is a bogus date based upon revised ancient history.
JC
"in what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of god's rest day come to an end?
the year 1975".
awake!
The 6000 years significance comes in with the presumption that the 1000-year reign would occur near the end of the 7th Creative Day which is 7000 years long.
Basically, the 7th Creative Day during which God rests from creative activity is dated to begin shortly after Eve was created, which could have been up to 100 years after Adam was created. At any rate, if the 1000-year rule was to occur during the last Creative Day then when 6000 years of that last Creative Day ran out, we should have reached the latest date for the 1000-year reign.
The WTS mistakenly tried to date this to 1975, but they did not include the variables the Bible allows:
1. That Eve could have been created up to 100 years after Adam.
2. That their dating for the fall of Jerusalem is based upon the erroneous date for the fall of Babylon in 539BCE. The correct date is 462BCE per resent advanced research (the Persians revised their chronology during the Seleucid Period).
Bottom line to the 1975 dating you can add up to 100 years to accommodate the creation of Eve and 127 years to correct wrong dating. That's about 227 years max to the end of the 6000 years from 1975. In other words, 6000 years into the 7th Creative Day would be at its latest 2202 AD and at its earliest 2102 A.D.
Something like that.
JCanon
