Posts by Awen

269

The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

there have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.

i guess this will be another one.

there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.

Awen

@ Paulappollos

"I must admit, the issue of the origin of life is always something that has made me think that there is a God. I do wonder whether "God" used evolution. One thing I would ask of you is this though - why?"

My opinion on this subject is this: If God were to make creationism unquestionable, without a doubt in our mind then where would that leave Faith? Faith is the cornerstone of religion. There is circumstancial evidence at best for creationism. Evolution has a much better explanation except when it comes to how life originated in the first place. Now stick Creationism into the mix and we see how it could have been accomplished. It can be akin to someone inventing the first automobile, then someone else adds to the original design. Then another and another and another. There are things within the human body that continually amaze us, then there are things that appear to be remnants of former structures that we no longer have (vestigal tail or muscles in our feet similar to what simians have for climbing trees). I would even go so far as to say it's even possible that we were tree climbing simians at one time and God simply chose a certain tribe out of all others to "improve". I mean I really don't know but the similarities to primates is there. We can't simply dismiss evidence because we don't like it.

Looking into the sky at night I'm awed by all the things I see. I wonder how things are kept together by "natural law" (as we define it). Could it not be kept together by something beyond our comprehension? These things have existed way before we came into existence and will be here long after you and I are dust in the wind and yet we argue constantly over the how and why rather than just accepting there might be some thing beyond our current level of understanding. Scientific theories on the cosmos have come and gone. Today's fact is yesterday's myth.

Paul did say something that has relevance in this matter.

1 Corinthians 13:9 "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!"

He then stated 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used."

I think eventually all our questions will be answered. For now faith must suffice. I realize that in order to believe I don't need all the answers right now. Sure I would like to have more information, but in reality there is just enough available for a reasonable conclusion to be made IF we do not discount information we happen to not like (creationism).

@bohm It's not awful. Been there, had it done to me, no biggie. However I can choose to not respond to it. Like Shelby said, a lot of people chose not to respond to this thread because ones such as yourself would come out and attack people's intelligence for holding onto a radical belief. So be it. Doesn't mean I have to or will. I have my own opinion and I've done my own research despite what you may or may not think. Your opinion of me and my intelligence means less than a pile of horse poo I just happened to step into.

269

The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

there have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.

i guess this will be another one.

there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.

Awen

do you even understand what independent trials mean, or did you just deside it was okay for you to ignore it?
Looks like you did the same thing with my numbers I got from a scientific source. Also I wasn't clear about my personal beliefs. I believe life was created by God, then using evolution God allowed for the mutation that has occurred in the animal and plant kingdoms.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/09/17/2689221.htm
For me the Independent Trials theory has no basis as it cannot be tested as to whether it's true or false in the case of creation of life (although it can be tested in other areas). This being mainly because thus far scientists have been unable to create life on their own. So they have no evidence to use as a control to test this theory other than the life that already exists. Sure they can cause mutations but not create life from the 7 basic amino acids that all life has in common. Granted there are many geographical places where life could have emerged, but the leading theory is that life originated in the oceans. That being said it seems likely the temperature and salinity would have remained somewhat constant (that is to say lacking variation, thus throwing the Independent Trial theory out the window). Research into the age of the Earth and what is was like seem to back this idea up.
http://www.historyoftheuniverse.com/archaebact.html
On a side note.
You bohm seem to be quite rude to people who have a differing opinion from yourself. Nickolas on the other hand is quite polite and respectful of other people's opinions. That makes for an easier discourse in my opinion. Your attitude towards persons on this forums reminds me of a certain publishing company that we are all familiar with.

269

The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

there have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.

i guess this will be another one.

there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.

Awen

Actually Nick I don't get the impression that God is very small when I look at the Universe. I get quite the opposite impression. Then again size isn't really an issue when thinking in astronomical terms. A dwarf star might be so many times smaller than our own sun, but is much more dense.

The possibility of life happening by chance has been estimated to be 1 in 10 to the 40,000 power or 10 with 40,000 zeroes behind it. That's just the chance for it to occur once. ONCE.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001127

Now consider that the diversity of life is one of the most striking aspects of our planet; hence knowing how many species inhabit Earth is among the most fundamental questions in science. Yet the answer to this question remains enigmatic, as efforts to sample the world's biodiversity to date have been limited and thus have precluded direct quantification of global species richness, and because indirect estimates rely on assumptions that have proven highly controversial. the higher taxonomic classification of species (i.e., the assignment of species to phylum, class, order, family, and genus) follows a consistent and predictable pattern from which the total number of species in a taxonomic group can be estimated. This approach was validated against well-known taxa, and when applied to all domains of life, it predicts ~8.7 million (±1.3 million SE) eukaryotic species globally, of which ~2.2 million (±0.18 million SE) are marine. In spite of 250 years of taxonomic classification and over 1.2 million species already catalogued in a central database, our results suggest that some 86% of existing species on Earth and 91% of species in the ocean still await description. Renewed interest in further exploration and taxonomy is required if this significant gap in our knowledge of life on Earth is to be closed.

So you have life occuring by chance (1 in 10 to the 40k power), some 8.7 million times on this planet alone.

Either we've had really good luck or something far bigger than us is at work here.

A person commits the fallacy of bifurcation when he or she claims that there are only two mutually exclusive possibilities-when, in fact, there is a third option. For this reason the fallacy is also known as the either-or fallacy and the false dilemma.

A facetious example is this:

"Either the traffic light is red, or it is green."
This is obviously fallacious, since the light could be yellow.
A more realistic example is this:
"Either you have faith or you are rational."

This commits the fallacy of bifurcation, since there is a third possibility: we can have faith and be rational. In fact, faith is essential in order to have rationality (e.g., to make sense of laws of logic).
"Either the universe operates in a law-like fashion, or God is constantly performing miracles."

This is also fallacious because a third possibility exists: the universe operates in a law-like fashion most of the time, and God occasionally performs a miracle.
Sometimes the origins debate is framed as "faith vs. reason," "science or religion," or the "Bible vs. science." These are all false dilemmas. Faith and reason are not contrary. They go well together (since all reasoning presupposes a type of faith)

269

The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

there have been several threads in which the views of the universe provided by the hubble space telescope have been discussed.

i guess this will be another one.

there's a new series being broadcast here in canada on the oasis hd nature channel entitled hubble's canvas.

Awen

29

False Christians chose the modern Bible books

by lifeisgood in

jw
friends

one of the issues that i discovered when i took two years off from the jws to just study the bible is the contents of the modern bible do not even come close to matching the contents of the holy books that the first christians used.

not even close.

off by over 550 books.. now, the jws claim that the catholic church is false religion.

Awen

If I recall there is a discussion in the "All Scripture is Inspired" Book about how the Bible was canonized. I don't have a copy so perhaps someone who does could link it or paste it. I think it mentions certain key factors which have to be taken into consideration (some of which the Apocryphal Books do meet) in order to be canonized.

Also it must be noted that the WTS has said in times past that by the time the last Apostle had died and up to the Third Century C.E. the church had fallen into apostsacy (around the time the Bible was canonized at Nicea).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Apostasy

So with that in mind all modern Bibles were put together by apostates and the JW's use such Bibles in their ministry or they use the books that were translated from copies of apostate texts.

98

JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

an earlier thread about pants suits for women led me on this tangent.

women make up the majorty of witnesses.

they cannot be suppressed without their acquiescene.

Awen

I agree with BotR and MeanGirl when they say women are oppressed in the Org.

I will cite a few examples.

I knew a Sister by the name of Lori. She married a new Brother by the name of Walt. I often visited their home and shared meals with them or went out into service with them. On one occasion I was speaking with Walt about some topic when Lori interjected her opinion. Walt responded to his wife by saying "You should wait until the men are finished speaking before you comment." I was taken aback. I sat there stunned and saw the look of extreme sadness cross Lor's face. She had been a dear friend before her marriage (I had been unaware that she had been seeking a marriage mate) and her husband's actions really pissed me off. So after we continued our conversation I mentioned Lor's comment and how insightful it was and invited her to interrupt me any time she wanted to with her keen insight. In effect, I put her husband in his place without challenging his headship. When I was leaving she smiled at me and thanked me for my kindness. Walt later apologized to his wife (so she told me).

Another Sister by the name of Joan was married to a former Bethelite, Paul. They had 2 children who weren't what most JW kids tended to be. They weren't regular at the meetings, had long hair, etc. You get the picture. Paul ran a photography business and his wife helped him. Actually she ran most of it but his name was on the business license. When I first became a Witness my family turned me out and Paul and Joan was gracious enough to allow me to stay with them. Only problem is I was to stay in a 10x6 camper trailer behind their house with no running water, toilet or shower. Paul seemed to think he was doing me a great service. Joan and the teenage kids thought I should be allowed to stay in the house. Paul disagreed and exerted his "headship". So I stayed in this trailer during the summer months with the outside temperature rising well above 100 F. I would be soaked in sweat and the trailer was infested with ants. I had to urinate in a portable toliet or walk up the road and use the facilities at a local gas station. I also had no way to cook food as I wasn't invited in to eat. Now I was in good standing, I attended more meetings than Paul did, went out in FS, I was baptized, held down a full time job (had to pay Paul rent) and was treated worse than a non-JW. I stayed until January through part of the winter. I had finally had enough when I had to shower outside with ice on the ground. The hot water heater they had worked on a timer, so I only had hot water if someone didn't use it all up before the timer ran out. Most days I was showering outside in 30 F weather in a pair of shorts and flip flops. All through this Joan begged her husband in vain to allow me to come into the house. Or the boys would sneak me into the house when their Dad wasn't home. Paul was very irregular at the meetings because of work and no surprise his children weren't spiritual. Yet he often belittled then for not going (when he didn't), turned off the electricity to their room if he thought they were misbehaving or just because he wanted to and acted the entire time as if he was such a charitible person. His wife would sometimes confide in me that she wanted to leave him but was waiting until the boys turned 18 (which she did eventually do). last I heard she had went to college, found out what the Truth really was and divorced her husband. He was able to re-marry with no problem, whereas she was labeled an apostate. To my knowledge they boys have no contact with their Dad but have a great relationship to their mom. She was such a kind hearted person and Paul was an ass of the worst extreme. But because he was a man he got away with all sorts of mental abuse, often calling his wife stupid in front of others, including me. Two days before I left for good he remarked that his wife was stupid for not getting the boys to the meeting on time (which was his fault for holding her up at work). I looked at Joan and then at Paul and said "You're right. She is stupid. She married you."

I could probably go on as I recall many examples of this. Suffice to say women are treated as second class citizens today, whereas in 1st Century Christianity they were accorded far more respect by Jesus.

May you have peace,

Awen

98

JW Women Self-0Loathing - Get a Back Bone

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

an earlier thread about pants suits for women led me on this tangent.

women make up the majorty of witnesses.

they cannot be suppressed without their acquiescene.

Awen

When I first came into the Organization (fresh out of high school) I had a particular viewpoint of women. Raised in a female dominated household I always saw women as superior to me (despite the WTBTS admonition otherwise). When seeking a marriage mate later on I was always intimidated by the Sisters in the congregations and more so by their fathers. I recall one sister in particular named Amber who's father was the CO of my congregation. He made it quite clear that for me to have any chance with her I had to accomplish certain goals. I had to be regular at the meetings, commments, reach out for privileges, pioneer and be able financially stable. A lot to ask of an 18 year old boy. I say boy because at that time (at least in my congregation) it was said you weren't a man until you were 30 years old (when Jesus was baptized).

I worked as hard as I could, making myself physically ill from the hardships. I fell asleeep during meetings. I gave everything I had and it was never enough. Do more was always the admonition. Preparing for the meetings, commenting, going out in service in a tie and coat (sometimes taking the coat off when the temp soared above 90 F).

I also saw the hardships the Sisters underwent. Though not allowed to "reach out" for privileges they were often "put in their place" by others, either older married sisters or immature single Brothers. I realized that they had it just as hard as I did, but in a different way. Though I wanted to do more so that I could have a wife and family, they were encouraged to do less (except pioneering) in order to have the same thing. I spoke with many a married Sister who had hopes, and dreams unrealized because their husbands were so domineering. I made it a point to never treat any person as inferior, nor on the other hand to be made to feel inferior by them because they held a position I did not.

I see what BotR is saying and yes there does need to be some backbone growing. But on both sides. The only control the GB has over the rank and file is what the rank and file allow them to have. It can be broken. The evidence is here on these forums.

Some might say that is easier said than done. I say it is easier done than said. History is full of examples where people have grown weary of tyranny and rose up against it. I believe the only thing holding most JW's back is the idea that YHWH directs the GB. Once that illusion is shattered then the house of cards will fall. Until such time however there is much that can be done.

For myself alone I knew that going against the GB meant I would probably never be allowed to marry or hold privileges. I realized these privileges were an illusion, they didn't really mean anything except boasting sessions to other people. YHWH doesn't care if we pioneer, comment or whatever. What He cares about is we follow his Son. Treat others with respect. Love one another.

If more people realized that it is all vanity and a striving after wind then they would stop all this nonsense. I suppose though people are afraid. They are so afraid of losing their position that they will turn on those bringing a message of hope and love. Sound familiar?

So we might blame the GB for some of our suffering but in reality we hold most of the responsibility. We allowed these things to happen to us because we feared men and the things they could take from us (also an illusion). I have lost dear friends and family to the WTS, but part of the blame is on themselves as well. They allowed themselves to be misled. They allowed others to think for them. They allowed others to tell them what was right and what was wrong, despite what the leading of the Holy Spirit said. This is definitely true of the GB so they hold the largest responsibility for misleading so many, but not all the blame. We hold some of that too. Personal accountability. If we are honest with ourselves and do not attempt to shift blame onto others then we will see the Truth of it.

The GB's authority is not granted by God, it's self-granted. It can thus be taken away by honest people who love God more than they love themselves. This though takes great courage and a willingness to give up all that you have for the ones you love. Possibly even your life.

A small pebble is all that's needed to start an avalanche.

Awen

46

Apostates Shut the door of everlasting life in Men's Faces

by mankkeli in

jw
friends

i was discussing with an elder today, and as usual the conversation drifted towards apostates and their line of reasoning, he angrily looked into my eyes with the scriptures in his hand and told me:.

(1) that apostates are destructive peddlers who shut the door of everlasting life on people as they are very sure they have no portion in there.

he quoted matt 23:13- 13 woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites!

Awen

I would have pointed out that Jesus was speaking to the "Interpreters" of the Law. The Pharisees and the Scribes. The ones who were entrusted by YHWH with making sure the Law of God was handled correctly. Jesus isn't speaking to ones who have left the Jewish Faith (as Apostates would be classified) but of those currently in a position of power (like the GB, Elders, MS).

These words of Jesus are clearly meant for those who take on the responsibilities of a teacher and NOT for those who merely question the teacher.

4

Has Anyone Tried a Class Action Suit Against the WTBS?

by mrquik in

jw
friends

i'd like to recoup 50 years of my life.

i'd like to be compensated for lost wages & opportunities.

i'm sure others have lost much more.

Awen

If the Supreme Court ever decides that a corporation is a person then someone could charge the WTS with committing adultery with the UN. Adultery is illegal in New York.

LMAO

127

Why I Shouldn't Believe in the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

by XJW4EVR in

when i was a jw, the key issue that caused me to doubt the wt was the trinity.

the wtb&ts's blatent misquotations and misrepresentations of religious scholarship to fit their anti-trinitarian presuppositions are horrid and inexcusable.

that issue, however, was not the issue that caused me to become a christian.

Awen

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