Posts by sd-7

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

My problem is that "religion" shouldn't be the one to set that guideline.

Indeed. I have seen firsthand just how hard it is to even have a relationship when religion is deeply involved. They try to scare you to death about it before you've even been dating that long!

And you know what, if we get caught up in something that turns out to hurt us or someone else then let that be your guide that it was "wrong" and not to do it again!

This reminds me of a humanist kind of perspective--based on my very limited knowledge of the subject (one perusal of whybelieveinagod.org or something like that). But it's a good point. It's just...when you're so terrified of your natural feelings that you repress them all the time, well, that can build into a frustration that causes you to behave irrationally and irresponsibly. Religion can sometimes cause that problem. And of course, religion will always blame the sinful followers FOR the problem.

It's a fine line to walk here. I didn't intend to get into a moral discussion like this. I can't help wondering if like, one of the elders will show up Saturday and say, "I know who you are...SD-7!" [dun dun duuuuuun!!] I suppose my only response could be, "Well, if you know who I am, then you know we don't need to have this conversation." And then walk out. "When you're done, sweetheart, come to the car."

But the Internet bein' evil and all, that's not likely to happen. If it did, though, at least it'd be over. Wife'd be mighty mad, though. Ah, well. Can't please everyone.

I'm enjoying this. Feels like this is the longest anyone's ever commented on one of my posts. I love it!

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

I hate that you still seem to be looking at this as some kind of a defeat, Christopher.

Getting out of the borg is a win for you and if your wife is patient with you and is willing to do her duty as the JWs lay it out for her, you'll have time to show her that it's a win for her, too. You WILL be a better husband for it. You ARE already a good person. You DO love her.

You DON'T owe the elders or the congregation ANYthing. You don't even have to show up at the next JC meeting.

Well, I do have to take my wife to the next meeting. It would create serious political problems if I don't go. And she will start to despise me. Fact is, when you're fighting the guy who holds all the cards, you don't win. Maybe for me, personally, yeah, I do win. But my marriage could well start to disintegrate, and it's already being torn at as it is.

Her measurement of a good husband is defined by said husband's willingness to obey cult leadership. That tends to create some problems. She will always see me as comparatively good, not actually good, at best. At worst, she will leave me. I'm just glad that, if that does happen, at least I won't have to put up with the malicious gossip that screwed our relationship in the first place, years ago.

I've no doubt that I could win. It is unlikely the elders have an unassailable position. They are predictable. Clever, not to be underestimated, but still predictable. I need to face them down because I need to extinguish the last of my fears regarding this religion. I can't be reindoctrinated, but I'm still running a program of their creation, somewhere beneath the surface. I need to stop it.

That, and I want to see what they'll do. I want to see just how disgusting this will really become. Great thing was, I was able to throw in a sentence that had some double meaning. "Now I know what evil really is." They took that to mean I was referring to myself, which I was. I was also referring to them.

"Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared."--The Art of War.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

Your message, which I respect is yours, doesn't scare me and that's what "religion", including yours wants to do. That's why our friend here is struggling because he's been "feared" into the idea that he's a "bad little boy". If that's how you get people to supposedly do the right thing, and if that's how you think it SHOULD be, and if that's the God you serve, then you are exactly where you need to be.

Excellent counterpoint, awildflower. I would agree that if there is a God, for Him to demand our absolute obedience through fear is to contradict the idea that his rule is about love. Fear can only be legitimate if you have the power to make a threat into a reality. And if fear is what worship is about, then God rules through power, not love.

I think for me the moral issues (like my own) can be particularly troubling. I've seen a lot of the bad results of fornication in people's lives--custody battles, struggling single moms, etc. I think if I was going to give advice to my child about this issue, I'd probably recommend that they, at the very least, wait until they could handle that kind of decision (sex) responsibly, and wait until they find someone that genuinely proves trustworthy over a significant period of time. To...figure out what they themselves want first, and then try to find someone who fits around that, not just try to find someone because you don't want to be alone. Putting the Biblical issues aside, that's my take.

Of course, if we consider the fact that odds are, there's more to Biblical events than one can see by simply reading the Bible, we might find ourselves hard-pressed to use its every nuance to guide our lives. Certain ideas, though, are things that I think are good for every culture, every human, everywhere. Fact is, we can't keep all the rules. It's very hard to do, even when resorting to mind control techniques. So I figure there's got to be something more, a road that you and I pave for our own selves, not one imposed on us by any particular holy book.

Just...keep it simple, I figure. Don't do anything to someone that you wouldn't want them to do to you. Bottom line. That, in essence, is what good religion, and good human behavior, is all about.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

I think it's already at the point of no return. They already have strong suspicion of apostasy, and there are two witnesses for that (though they don't KNOW there are two). Given my performance at session #1, it's not looking too good. I just want to be free of the cult burdens. I'll even go so far as to accompany the wife to all the meetings, so long as no further expectations are imposed upon me save sitting there and ignoring everybody, which I wanted to do anyway.

I can't hold back from telling them the reality now, even though I know they'll use it against me. But there's nothing they can possibly take from me that hasn't already been taken. The person I was, even the public face who seemed good and honorable, that person is dead. If they get my wife to turn on me and even to separate, so be it. I was prepared to accept losing her from the moment we reunited. I have to make a stand now. I have to face reality and engage them. It got too personal for me to just let it go.

Well, this has all been very interesting, folks. Glad to see this has generated so much support and so many helpful and useful thoughts.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

Well, I have to defend FuzzyPaul here, as I think he's said some insightful things. From the Christian perspective, yes, awildflower and pistoff are indeed wrong. Fornication is a sin, but...through Christ, we can be forgiven. How that process takes place, of course, is another matter. Certainly the WT method of punishment and isolation will not likely produce anything other than a person who probably continues to sin seriously and just leaves altogether, or a person who repents and is so deeply scarred emotionally that well...Stockholm syndrome follows.

From some other perspective, they are probably right. So long as one considers the moral consequences and makes the best possible choice for temselves, considering the potential consequences to themselves and others, no big deal.

Fact is, until we bite the bullet, buy the farm, kick the bucket, etc., we have no freaking idea who is right and who is wrong. Me? Well...I don't think any of us need to attack each other's point of view here. FuzzyPaul approaches it from a Christian/Baptist perspective, awildflower approaches it from a different perspective, as does Pistoff. I'm not sure any of us can suggest that our ideas are absolutely superior to anyone else's. We're all in error in one way or another. Hopefully, you folks can just agree to disagree.

I can only speak for my own moral code, which is pretty shaky at the moment anyway. One thing's for sure, I'm not going to abandon my marriage because it's tough or because my wife happens to treat me with disdain at times. I just hope that whatever happens, she finds happiness in her life, and if I'm impeding that, maybe I should get out of the way. If I can help add to her happiness, however, I'd like to do so. I've little left to work with in my life as it is. The superstructure is crumbling. I need to find a way to be strong and get through this, that's all.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

Actually, no, I'm referring to a specific WT article. Think it was in the '70s, maybe '79? I don't normally like to use elders' letters as relevant testimony, as those aren't as accessible as the WT itself. I remembered seeing it on the Silent Lambs site and looking it up on my WT Library.

--Christopher

70

Does Anyone Miss Being In The Jehovah's Witness Cult?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i saw 6 jw zombies walking up a hill near where i live the other day.

they all were dressed nicely.

they walked together in twos.

sd-7

Being almost out, I have to say, no. I don't miss it. If I could sleep in instead of going to a meeting or out in field service, if I could avoid irritating road trips to indoctrination sessions, and instead sleep half the Saturday/Sunday, play video games and watch movies until my eyes fall out, I would like to do that. Very, very much.

The feeling of never being good enough because of some failing is not one I will miss. I soon realized just how much emotional pain was being repressed even by the best of them. I'm glad to be free of that. I'm not even fully free yet and I can tell you that it's awesome to know it's not real. Life, knowledge, everything just seems so much more alive than it used to, even despite the fresh scars.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

It stated that if the sin occurred more than three years before, then the record since then of that person should be considered.

This is an interesting topic, albeit off-subject in my case. Worthy of a new thread, I should think. Ironic. The responsibility of us ordinaries to confess would seem to be undermined by statements like that. I did read an article once that said if you sinned in some way, or even committed a crime (even if you were wanted for murder--they did mention even if loss of life was involved), as long as it happened before you got baptized, no big deal. Whack.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

Well, I don't know what's natural. Being thankful they don't stone people anymore has been my idea of 'natural' for all of my life. Do I wake up and think of myself as a monster? Certainly, but not so much because I had sex before I got married. But more because I reached a point of no return. I violated my own moral code all because I found out the Society was doing the same thing. That makes me no more honorable than them. It makes my testimony useless. ...

And...it was morally wrong to marry this woman, knowing what I would have to put her through. I had the chance to put aside my pent-up feelings for her. I could have walked away. I could have found a way to make it on my own. Instead, because of me, we're going through this trial. If there is such a thing as sin, I certainly sinned against her.

Deep down, I'd love to have had the opportunity to be a single man, a single, intelligent, creative, handsome man who might find happiness with someone who relates to him emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, and physically. I would've liked to have dated more people, for that reason. Since...it's obvious that the more I tried to repress my desire for companionship, the more I desired companionship. ... Sadly, my wife doesn't really seem to value the dozens of songs I wrote for her, and doesn't laugh at my jokes, and...doesn't see beauty in anything beyond my obedience to the organization. If I sinned against her, I sinned twice as much against myself. Because...much as she's filled my life with richness, I don't feel at all rewarded or appreciated for loving her. Maybe not even respected, in the most basic manner.

But that's my fault. I do have that shame to bear. I loved her, and I made the only choice a man that much in love could make. My only regret is that she may never understand why I feel the way I do about the religion. She will never know how much research, prayer and struggle all of this caused. She will never know how impossible a decision I was faced with, thinking, should I leave her behind, or risk marrying her and bringing this problem into her life? Sometimes...you just wish Vulcan mind-melds were possible.

But I'll figure it out, I guess. Just two more days, and 2nd session will begin.

--Christopher

111

Borg court: 1st session

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

record of committee meeting #1. after prayer, proverbs 28:13 was read: "he who is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he who is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

" the need to confess to jehovah was emphasized.

as jehovah's representatives, the elders said we therefore needed to confess to them.

sd-7

She herself I would think is now also at risk of being dfed?

Given that for some reason they didn't speak to her alone (that is, I was present for everything they said to her), I think it's possible they might let her off easy. Just for the simple fact that she's spilling her guts now. Me, I don't think they'll show mercy to. Sucks.

--Christopher