"Let us go also, that we may die with him." Couldn't help being reminded of that scripture. It can be a very emotional thing, even when you know what reality is about. Well, hope your freedom brings you better times. Soon, I will join you.
SD-7
Posts by sd-7
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27I'm Out
by Cthulhu inwednesday night i recieved a call from both the coeb and the kingdom hall.
i didn't answer.
yesterday i called him back and i was informed that unless i wanted to talk to the brothers they had determined that my actions spoke for themselves and that i had by those actions disassociated myself.
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59
Explain My Weird Dream---The Watchtower Was Using The Word "Minimusize"
by minimus ini remember seeing the wt.
magazine's frequent use of the word "minimusize" in a positive light.
and there was the sound and smell of ground coffee that was in the background.
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sd-7
"Minimusizing In This Time of the End"
"The Minimusizing Work--Urgently Needed!"
"Can You Minimusize More Fully?"
"Expanding Your Minimusizing"
"Following Minimusizational Direction--Essential For Salvation"
This actually could happen. I can see another new song book coming out with the word "Minimusize" being added into the lyrics. Fascinating. The dream you had...it is one possible future, not set in stone, but fluid. It might happen. It might not. We are wise to avoid being dogmatic about the details.
SD-7
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An easy way to demolish 1914
by sd-7 ini've read so many different discussions about 587 b.c.[e.
i often wondered if those issues were debatable; either way, i found the discussions of the historical data to be far too technical for the average person to absorb.
if i may be so bold, i consider myself as slightly above average, in my more arrogant moments.
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sd-7
I've read so many different discussions about 587 B.C.[E.] and the like. I often wondered if those issues were debatable; either way, I found the discussions of the historical data to be far too technical for the average person to absorb. If I may be so bold, I consider myself as slightly above average, in my more arrogant moments. And while I'm fascinated with history, it's just a tough subject to absorb. I always wanted to compare, say, The Gentile Times Reconsidered with the Society's own defenses of 607 B.C.E.
But in the end, that's not the point. Jehovah's Witnesses look to the Bible as their final authority. [*cough* bull**** *cough*] Excuse me. Must be that carbon emission problem going on in the area. Anyway, so, if that's what they say, then let's hold them to it. Here is why 1914 is impossible.
Daniel 4:34: "And at the end of the days, I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation."
Notice that word "is" in the last phrase there? It's used in reference to both God's rulership and God's kingdom. "Is" denotes present tense, ongoing. In this case, it IS obvious that 1914 is wrong. Why? Because the very heart of the premise for doing the 607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E. calculation is in error:
Jehovah's rulership was never interrupted.
Here, in this verse, we have the very king who supposedly was allowed to interrupt God's rulership over the earth acknowledging that, not he himself, but the Most High is ruler. That the Most High's kingdom is ongoing, to time indefinite, from generation to generation. The words are very clear. And undeniable.
So, in order to defend 1914, that is, the need for a 'seven times' calculation in the first place, we are faced with two options: (1) construe these words to say something they do not say or (2) deny the Bible record of what Nebuchadnezzar said altogether.
In humiliating Nebuchadnezzar, God makes clear that no human government, regardless of who it attacks, is capable of supplanting his authority over the earth. His kingdom remained intact after Jerusalem's destruction, no matter what year it happened.
Of course, the logical defense to this assertion of mine is, well, what's the point in Daniel 2:44? If God's kingdom is eternal, why bother crushing all the kingdoms? My response? Well, it's one thing to have authority, and it's another to smash all opposition in direct exercise of said authority. Exactly, the JW would say, which is why 7 times 360 = 2,520 years, which brings us to 1914.
After pausing to grant said JW the satisfaction of being right, I again go back to Daniel 4:34. Since God's sovereignty is being acknowledged by this king, what logical reason is there to conclude this tree dream he had has any bearing on a specific year for God's Kingdom to be established? There can be no starting date for the end of God's rulership as expressed towards the earth if the guy who toppled said rulership bows and acknowledges God as king! Because by all logic, then, the calculation would have to start after Nebuchadnezzar's death. In the end, it requires us to be more and more inventive to the point where it becomes obvious we're just desperate to prove ourselves right, to justify our belief system. And thus, we have to ask ourselves, why?
Why? Why go through this trouble? Why insist that true Christianity is dependent on Bible chronology instead of on faith in Jesus Christ? Why preach a good news that is directly dependent on said chronology? This is not the message Jesus Christ preached. His focus was on love of God, love of neighbor, of repentance and faith. These are easy things for anyone to understand. They don't require a calculator, or blind faith in any group of men. They just require belief in the Lord Jesus Christ--his coming, his death, his resurrection, his ransom in behalf of our sins.
Well, I'll leave others to answer those questions, though I believe the answers are already clear to me. This is an issue that was touched upon in The Gentile Times Reconsidered, but I just wanted to add my thoughts, see if I touched upon anything new. I don't know if it was helpful, but there you have it. Take care.
SD-7
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7 Times 2520 Years - Nut Jobs Everywhere
by LostGeneration inthe wt isnt alone...i didn't realize how many nut jobs use this math to forward their prophetic agendas.
dates start all over the place and end up in around our time, give or take a few hundred years... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1c1ggls_enus360us363&q=7+times+2520+years&start=10&sa=n.
the wt doesn't even make page one on google with their 2520 theory.
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sd-7
Oh--wait--let me correct myself. They do still believe 1918 is a year marked by Bible prophecy (as evidenced by an upcoming 3/15/10 study article), same as with 1919. So...guess they did keep some of it.
SD-7
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7 Times 2520 Years - Nut Jobs Everywhere
by LostGeneration inthe wt isnt alone...i didn't realize how many nut jobs use this math to forward their prophetic agendas.
dates start all over the place and end up in around our time, give or take a few hundred years... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1c1ggls_enus360us363&q=7+times+2520+years&start=10&sa=n.
the wt doesn't even make page one on google with their 2520 theory.
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sd-7
DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914.
That's right out of the What Does the Bible Really Teach? Appendix. It's, to put it lightly, a misleading statement. They manage to conceal what 'significant developments' were actually proclaimed. They certainly weren't proclaiming THEN what they claim it is NOW, not precisely. The end of the Gentile Times, at least, is consistently true, I would say, but what happened in 1914 was NOT predicted at all. If World War I hadn't happened in that year, I guarantee you 1914 would've been dropped like 1874, 1918, 1925, 1975, and "this generation" have been.
SD-7
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7 Times 2520 Years - Nut Jobs Everywhere
by LostGeneration inthe wt isnt alone...i didn't realize how many nut jobs use this math to forward their prophetic agendas.
dates start all over the place and end up in around our time, give or take a few hundred years... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1c1ggls_enus360us363&q=7+times+2520+years&start=10&sa=n.
the wt doesn't even make page one on google with their 2520 theory.
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sd-7
What I've realized about this is that we're looking at the absurdity of it from so many angles, but the one of the easiest ways to tear down this 1914 concept is really right in front of our faces. I'm going to post on this issue today, hopefully, to 'draw JWN posters away after myself.' Blah hah hah hah!
SD-7
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13
Gideon--He Questioned Jehovah
by sd-7 init is common, as a thought-stopping mechanism amongst jehovah's witnesses, to use phrases like "don't question jehovah" or "don't question the organization".
often, as evidenced in a recent watchtower study article, biblical examples are given like that of diotrephes, who opposed john in the first century, or korah, dathan, and abiram, who questioned moses' authority and were barbecued in the wilderness.
these are pointed to as examples of those who questioned jehovah and suffered condemnation or even death as a result.
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sd-7
It is common, as a thought-stopping mechanism amongst Jehovah's Witnesses, to use phrases like "don't question Jehovah" or "don't question the organization". Often, as evidenced in a recent Watchtower study article, Biblical examples are given like that of Diotrephes, who opposed John in the first century, or Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, who questioned Moses' authority and were barbecued in the wilderness. These are pointed to as examples of those who questioned Jehovah and suffered condemnation or even death as a result.
These examples, however, ignore the very real presence of faithful men in the Bible who did indeed question Jehovah. They did so, not out of arrogance or presumptuousness or thinking that they knew more than Jehovah, but out of sincere concern for reality, for truth, for God's will to be done. One example is found in the Israelite judge Gideon. In Judges chapter 6, which I encourage you to read for yourself, the Israelites are in bad shape. The Midianites are oppressing Israel to the point where even their food is being taken away by force.
It was in this terrible situation that, as Gideon himself was hiding food from Midian, Jehovah's angel comes to him, as written in Judges 6:12, 13: "Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our forefathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian."
Do you notice what happened here? Gideon questioned the validity of Jehovah's words. He questioned Jehovah. Why did he do so? Because the real, tangible evidence in front of him said to him, there is just no way Jehovah is with Israel! He asked a real, sincere question, based on the evidence that was right in front of him.
What was Jehovah's reaction? Did he summarily reject Gideon for 'challenging his channel of communication'? No. Instead, he provided guidance and encouragement. In verses 36-40 of chapter 6, Gideon TWICE asks for tangible proof that God was with him. Jehovah TWICE provided him with such proof, AGAIN not rejecting him for questioning whether or not God was backing him up.
Gideon, as we have been taught, was a humble, righteous man, used mightily by Jehovah, if I may invoke Watchtower language here. Yet, Gideon questioned Jehovah. As a result, he was provided with faith-strengthening evidence of Jehovah's backing, not condemnation for having a 'complaining, fault-finding spirit'.
So then, the question for Jehovah's Witnesses today is simple: if you follow Gideon's example by questioning the Watchtower Society's teachings, based on evidence you find, what will be the consequence for you? Will you be given faith-strengthening evidence, especially if you question such teachings repeatedly? Or will you be labeled as no different than Korah, Dathan, and Abiram? Well. Try it. See what happens. But thousands can testify to the fact we already know the answers to those questions.
It is possible for much good to come from questioning Jehovah. God's Word itself shows us that we need not be afraid of doing so. If you are afraid, then another question should come to mind: is something wrong with you, or is something wrong with the organization you belong to? Food for thought.
SD-7
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The BITE model for mind control groups: "B" is for "Behavior control"
by JimmyPage ini. behavior control1.
regulation of individual's physical reality.
a. where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with.
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sd-7
When I first started waking up, the one line that stuck with me from one of the assemblies is a prime example of how behavior control is very much alive. The circuit overseer said, practically yelled it at the audience, "You don't deserve a vacation! That's Satan's thinking!" Of course, no one else seemed to notice. But that one, I filed away under "something is very wrong here".
SD-7
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Just read Crisis of Conscience - Malawi/Mexico double standard
by jambon1 inall i can say is - wow.
what a bunch of absolutely hypocritical, double tongued shithouses the governing body really are.. reading the letters to & from the different branches/governing body on 'alternative service' made me so angry.. an organisation that is utterly rotten from the top down.
these men have blood on their hands.. filth!.
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sd-7
This was the part of Crisis of Conscience that left me so disturbed that I felt sick inside. I was reading it in .pdf form at work, and just had to get up and go for a walk, if I remember correctly. I read the Yearbook in the year they wrote about the Malawi experiences (it was in the '90s, I think). Finding out that those people suffered for no reason...people died, man. People died. There's no going back once you read about that kind of stuff. I always wondered what it could be that would make folks turn against the organization so thoroughly. Now I know. Thoroughly.
Being responsible for such an atrocity would ordinarily cause such men to be tried for war crimes. But since it was all under the guise of religion and was the 'personal decision' of each individual Malawian victim involved, the boys in Brooklyn get off scot-free. Men like this should be fought till our dying day.
SD-7
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How SAFE are children in the Kingdom Hall?
by wobble inthis topic is prompted by the recent one on abuse being an isolated incident.. the thread title is not that good, i mean to ask, how safe in the entire org.. the charities commission publishes these instructions for implementation here in the u.k :.
"procedures and systems provide clear step-by-step guidance on what to do in different circumstances and they clarify roles and responsibilities.
systems for recording information and dealing with complaints are also needed to ensure implementation and compliance.
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sd-7
I worry about our kid. Don't like to let her out of our sight, and definitely don't like it when people hold her or the males look at her. Wife would never believe the seriousness of the danger, of course, but I do. There are no background checks. Granted, there may not be background checks in a lot of places. But here, people can know about abuse and never tell you. Figure it's safest to assume no one can be trusted. Which is what I would assume anyway.
SD-7