jw serving elders ... did any of you have to handle the part at the sm this week on why jehovah's witnesses are not a false prophet?.
this part made me livid.
our most corporate elder handled this part and i felt my self wanting to refute everything he said.
elderelite: Thanks you saved some time for me , since I wanted to research this topic...
I heard, some were a bit confused about the fact, that our MS called JW as prophets in a sense, so maybe I can help some to start thinking a bit.
babysteps, you know....
jw serving elders ... did any of you have to handle the part at the sm this week on why jehovah's witnesses are not a false prophet?.
this part made me livid.
our most corporate elder handled this part and i felt my self wanting to refute everything he said.
we had an MS handling it, even touched on subjects like 1975...of course was not a false prophecy, just wrong expactations...
For me it was never really a problem, that 1975 was wrong, mistakes can happen, however, what bothered me always, is that they tried to blame the "normal" brothers, and long time denied responsibility of the org !
striking though is the false analogy: appstles asking when the time will come compared to claiming of JW that the end will come 1914, 1925, 1975...and demanding their followers to stop getting education, good job etc....
this is an actually quote made by a district overseer at a convention in dekalb illinois in august of 2008...yep, no joking, swear on a holy bible...he actually said that.
just thought about the quote and thought i should post it to share it with the fellow 'apostates' (sarcasm)..
intersting thread.
when I was fully in, I always thought, even unrepentant sinners ( wrong conduct) must have lost their faith, otherwise their course is suicidal. My conclusion (in opposite to the qouted CO) was, and interstingly is even more so now, that most who get dfd, even for behaviour reasons, in fact lost their faith (meaning faith in WTS) before that.
Those who merely succumbed to weakness will seek to get away with reprove.
years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.
it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.
it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.
debator, either you dont understand or dont want ot understand, I have not figured that out yet.
anyway, there are plenty examples here, were official WTS teaching is either not supported by the bible or represents distortet biblical explanations.
you want examples ?
just a few at the top of my head:
WT says :never question the FDS - bible says: Gal 1:8, Acts 17:11 etc
WT says: 1914 Gods kingdom in heaven(due to whacky chronology) - bible says: Acts 1:6,7
WT says: birthday reason for dfd - bible says: Romans 14:5,6
much more here on JWN or here: www.jwfacts.com
well researched, and documented.
btw, you did not cite any specific proof of your statement, that witnesses teach more accurate than any other religion, either.
My little dialogue should only mirror your post, just from the opposite site, showing that both, witnesses and ex-witnesses often use strawman arguments. However, according to my experience, its more often used by witnesses.
Thats how we are trained, for example, if someone asks, if we would let our children rather die than accept blood transfusion, the answer is: Blood is dangerous and there are other safer methods, and so on,....a typical strawman.
And dont say, we dont do that, because me and other witnesses (ex-JW here can testify too) used exactly this strategy...
years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.
it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.
it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.
for debator:
me (conscious class)´: the WTS teaches XYZ, while the bible says here ABC
(fanatic) witness: but here another scripture says XYZ
me: but the context of this scripture gives a different idea
witness: maybe, however, the FDS is Gods chosen channel, they know what is right
me: ok, but can they overstep scriptures ?
witness: no, all they teach is according to scripture
me: ok, so why is this scripture I showed you, not in line with WTS teaching ?
witness: you sound like an apostate, where did you get your idea ?
me: does it matter ? I just want to know, why WTS contradicts this scriptures
witness: we must never question Gods channel...
me: how to we know its Gods channel ?
witness: what ? of course the WTS is Gods channel, they have been teaching us the truth
me: what is truth ?
witness: hmm, everything in line with Gods word
me: okay, so why is then claim XYZ not in line with Gods word?
witness: the FDS warns us about independent thinking, trust them, not apostate ideas, or God will destroy you in A., period...I´m telling on you now...
from the august 1960 issue of the kingdom ministry.. organized social entertainment.. 1 from one locality it is reported that there is a regular arranging of social events, not at the kingdom hall where such sociabilities are prohibited, but in halls rented on the outside, and that to these events the brothers of not only one congregation but of others in the vicinity are invited.
the motive for holding these parties is set forth as being to enable particularly the young folk of the congregations to get better acquainted with one another.
in one district there seems to be a trend in this direction of holding large-scale social affairs, ostensibly to increase inter-congregational acquaintanceship and to enjoy together several hours of relaxation and and to do so in a safe way so that no worldliness or no worldly elements insinuate themselves.. 2 the brothers responsible for such social gatherings on a large scale try to rationalize in behalf of the propriety of holding such social events.
great find,
so really, always the same old, same old....
it seems like an endless cycle of ups und downs,
prizeless the argument in par. 6:
"The place for thus gathering together all the more so because the day is drawing near is the Kingdom Hall, where all those attending service centers during the week may gather"
50 years ago !!!
its a "worldly" holiday and both my daughter and i are at home, not in service.
i got up, made us breakfast, (sausage and eggs) and now i'm playing on jw net.. on the downside, my wife and son are out in service and i have to sit down and put together my service groups time and turn that in to the secretary... (although my son didnt want to go.. he complained "cant we just have a chill day".. i was going to let him stay home but he changed his mind to go see a friend who said he was also going out...).
all you active jw's... did you or are you going out..or are you ditching?.
no service this weekend, we went shopping instead.....even though I dont know whats worse, field circus or shoe shopping with my wife
years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.
it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.
it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.
very good story, thanks,
however, I try to figure out the difference between a "strawman" and a "red hering".
Is your story not rather a "red hering" ? Since the dentists might well be from the 3rd world countires, however, the real issue was, if baking soda is a good thing for cleaning teeth. So he led you on the wrong track, which a red hering is supposed to do.
quote Wikipedia:
Red herring
. A "red herring" is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.
in opposite to a "strawman"
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
In your case, if the dentist said, that some claim, baking soda is the best for "whitening" teeth (which you did not say, you said "cleaning" ), and then refutes this claim, this would be a strawman according to my understanding.
Sorry, no offense, i just try to understand logical fallacies myself.
However, i totally agree, the WTS uses both fallacies regularly, and sadly also most witnesses learned how to apply this dishonsest methods, even though they are not aware of it. which is even worse, because they deceive themselves (I did too before !)
inbetween
did anybody notice the paragraph in today's study edition that pretty much said that "violent video games and movies are training people to be violent towards each other during the great tribulation".. i really had to do my best to not laugh when i read this.
i don't know if any of you watch penn & teller's show.
they did a show on violent video games and their effect.
strange WT study alltogether anyway,
admittedly, some kind of modern entertainment goes overboard with graphic gore and violence, even "worldly" people agree on that...
however, if you make a movie exactly according to the bible, it would be R-rated for sure...
The statement of the WT, violence in modern entertainmen tis training people to slaughter themselves in big A is weird.
Training ( or here molding, conditioning) usually has a goal, a purpose, this must be, as the world is in Satans hand, from Satan himself. So he is training his people, so they can fulfill biblical prophecy of Zecharaiah 14 ?
Another thought, if the big issue is, that mankind is not able to rule itself without god, than this issue is not answered either, because mankind does not rule itself, it is ruled by satan...so in fact mankind never had the chance to rule itself...how does this answer the issue of universal souvereignty ?..
and if the rule of satan should be in any way a competition to Gods rule, should we not expect to have a better world, since any badness proves satan a lier and just gives evidence in favour of God ?
..my head hurts....
pondering over this dilemma:.
lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.
watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.
wow, the thread picked up .....
anyway, thanks, interesting replies...
Regarding the tree of life: i discussed it once with an interested person, he had the idea, that humans got a kind of inner clock, that ticks towards death, and by eating the from the tree of life, they can set it to zero again. Once they turned against God, they were denied access to this tree, and therefore slowly died.
Sounded interesting, but I checked the insight book, were this idea was repulsed.
But what real function did the tree of life have ? To give them eventually immortality, as the WT explains ? Ok, so then this period of time before would be a test from God, but God doesnt try anyone according to James ?
Regarding free will: Clearly God was upset about the decision of Adam and Eve, because he banned them from Eden, and it was necessary, as Paul states, that mankind becomes reconciled with God again.
But what really is free will ? Of course, on a daily basis we usually claim, that we make decisons consciously and free, however is this really the case ?
For example, I walk into a store to buy a shirt. There is a wide selection, and from all them I pick lets say a blue Ralp Lauren shirt. I go home and think I made a real decision out of free will. But is this the case ? Maybe I bought the shirt because I like blue (from childhood on), I like the cut of Ralph lauren, because it reminds me subconscioulsy of something I feel comfortable with, I finally bought it, because the music in the store is designed to encourage sells, etc...
So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.
