the org teaches that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (although it once confined it the the catholic church) but i find it difficult that there will be a collapse of religion although people's attitude towards religion has changed greatly, particularly muslim.
babylon means confusion.. the recent global financial crisis has got me thinking that this is quite significant and a collapse of our financial stucture will certainly cause a great deal of hardship for both governments and individuals.
it would change every part of our every day life, particularly in the western world.
Isn't "Babylon The Great" supposed to be something that was once "good," ... that later went "bad" ... in God's eyes???
Isn't that what Revelation 18:2 is telling us about her???
It says:
"... she has BECOME ... [yes, "BECOME" this demonized place over time, from her previous spiritual condition] a dwelling place of demons..."
Isn't that what the verse is saying about her???
jj
god rest his soul.
although i never met him personally, he and i did correspond a number of times, and i have numerous friends who have not only met him, but stayed several days with he and cynthia at their home.
if nothing else, ray was kind, non-judging, and generous.
Hi GFNB:
You asked:
If the President and Vice President of the WTBTS (before the GB was fully enpowered in Dec. 1975) approached you and asked you to compile what was to become the new Aid To Bible Understanding book, and they further told you to keep this book PURE and not to follow organizational dogma...would you personally write down a bunch of lies on chronology supporting the 1914 teaching, or would you tell the PURE TRUTH as directed, about the matter -- which???
To answer your question specifically, I believe the general consensus here (at JW.Net) is, because we (JWs) all existed in "cognitive dissonance" for so many years prior to the special invite from the President/Vice President of the WTBTS, we should have done exactly as Raymond Franz did, namely thoroughly research the 607 bce chronology date, and then personally make an inward determination that the 607 bce date was complete FALSE information, and then proceed to irrepairably damage or "sear" our christian-conscience (as shown at 1 Timothy 4:2) and proceed to "righteously" write in the new Aid To Bible Understanding publication that the 607 date was actually TRUTH, so that millions upon millions of innocent, UNKNOWING Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide (like ourselves) will continue to be MISLEAD! That's what we were supposed to do, if we were presented with that opportunity, GFNB!
I hope this answers your question, GFNB!!!
Wow...what a startling revelation, from our friends at JW.Net!!!
jj
god rest his soul.
although i never met him personally, he and i did correspond a number of times, and i have numerous friends who have not only met him, but stayed several days with he and cynthia at their home.
if nothing else, ray was kind, non-judging, and generous.
Here is something to think about...
If the President and Vice President of the WTBTS (before the GB was fully enpowered in Dec. 1975) approached you and asked you to compile what was to become the Aid To Bible Understanding book, and they further told you to keep this book PURE and not to follow organizational dogma...would you personally write down a bunch of lies on chronology supporting the 1914 teaching, or would you tell the PURE TRUTH as directed, about the matter -- which???
If you want to get the details to this situation concerning Raymond Franz, please see the following link and information below:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/39360/3/The-Real-Trutbh-About-Raymond-V-Franz-Revealed
-----------------------snippet from 2nd post made by bjc2012 made eight (8) years ago--------------------------------------------------
I don't have my personal copy of "Crisis of Conscience" yet, but I know you guys are NOT telling me, even shocking me by saying, Raymond Franz was told beforehand, by the President and Vice President of the WTBTS, namely Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz, to
"...keep the Aid Book pure,"
... and yet he purposely decided to "carry the party-line" of phony chronology anyway, continue telling blatant lies (for lack of a better description) when compiling the WTBTS' "Aid To Bible Understanding" Book, so as to continue the subterfuge and lies of the WTBTS that till this day, continue to MISLEAD millions of JWs worldwide???
And still, you people think this guy (Raymond Franz) is still somehow, a good guy???
What???...
I believe all the people who feel this way, need to have their heads examined. And that's my take on all of this.
jj
yes, the wtbs has done much deserving ridicule- yet does far more deserving credit and respect.. but this is not about them, but the truth about god and christ they have made known, by showing it to all in the scriptures.
because of this work, most know that god(s) is not the ultimate sadist bbqing billions in a mythical 'hellfire' anymore, etc!.
this topic is at the request of little bird- is it possible to have a peaceful discussion here- without all the self-righteous psychobabble from so many?.
Hi TheMadJW,
Also, on the topic of what Jehovah's Witnesses actually possess by way of bible truth, the following article shows they only possess a bank of fundamental (elementary) truths...that's all.
What is more, these basic "truths" the Jehovah's Witnesses possess, have actually been known for centuries ... way before CT Russell ever started his bible study work in the 1800s. Historian Will Durant chronicles these facts. So, the International Bible Students nor Jehovah's Witnesses did not originate bible teachings like, no trinity, no hellfire, no immortality of the soul, no earth-burning-up-everybody-going-to-heaven teaching, no cross veneration, etc., etc., etc. There were many bible study groups hundreds of years PRIOR to the work of CT Russell, that held these very same views. (For instance, the Albigensenians, for example.) So, history proves the Jehovah's Witnesses did not originate them...as many misguided JWs think.
Here is the link:
...hope this helps.
Jay-Jay-
yes, the wtbs has done much deserving ridicule- yet does far more deserving credit and respect.. but this is not about them, but the truth about god and christ they have made known, by showing it to all in the scriptures.
because of this work, most know that god(s) is not the ultimate sadist bbqing billions in a mythical 'hellfire' anymore, etc!.
this topic is at the request of little bird- is it possible to have a peaceful discussion here- without all the self-righteous psychobabble from so many?.
Hi TheMadJW:
You said:
But this is NOT about them, but the Truth about God and Christ they have made known, by showing it to all in the scriptures.
I would question whether they (WTBTS) actually teach "truth." For example, take this bit of info.
-----------------------------snip-----------------------------
However, if the above information is not enough to convince an individual, let's consider another fact. In verses 11 and 12 of 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter from the New World Translation , we read:
"So that is why God lets [ NWT "lets ... it go"] an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12 New World Translation
There can be no question, but that these particular verses have, over the years, proven to be quite problematic for the Watchtower Society, to say the least. Therefore, you will find upon examination, there is very little written about them as a form of explanation as to how this all happens, actually. So then, let's examine this situation for ourselves.
First, you may have noticed that we put in brackets the word "lets." That is because this word "lets" is a special rendering by the Watchtower Society. How do we know? Well, if you check the Watchtower Society's own New World Kingdom Interlinear Translation for yourselves, as Paul recommends all "christians" do (Acts 17:11), you will find the English transliteration of the actual Greek word here (Greek: Pem'po ) is to be translated literally as ... "is sending." Now mind you, this is according to the Watchtower Society's own publication, this case.
Further, more investigation reveals apparently all other modern translations of the Greek also renders this verse consistently the same, namely: God "sends" this "operation of delusion" or "error." We have not as of yet, found any modern translation of the Bible that renders the verse as if God `lets it go to them.' However, let's notice an even more shocking, direct statement by the Watchtower Society on this very verse. They say pointedly:
"GOD DOES NOT DIRECTLY SEND this `operation of error,' but lets it go to the deceived ones in order to prove that it is what they really want. (Compare Hebrews 4:12) In this way all honest-hearted persons can see that God is just in his judgment." (See 1975 Watchtower pg. 271 par. 4)
Did you notice their comment that "God does not directly send this operation of error" ... did you notice this???
No, but the Watchtower Society explains Almighty God ... "lets it go" to the wrongdoers. But how can they (Governing Body/Watchtower Society) teach this to seven (7) millions Jehovah's Witnesses, right within the publications, not to mention millions of interested persons who avidly read the literature around the world ... how can they do this???
Now at this point, ask yourself: Isn't that statement made above by the Watchtower Society, in itself, a direct contradiction to the actual inspired text? Yes, isn't this a direct contradiction of what the Scriptures actually say???
And to further demonstrate their gross disrespect for God's Word, ohhhhhhhh yes, they have adjusted `their' own particular translation of the bible, namely the New World Translation , to reflect this twisted thinking by saying ... God "lets ... it go," instead of what should properly be there, namely the expression God actually "sends" the "operation of error," or "strong delusions," just as many, many modern translations clearly say. (In fact to date, we cannot find a single modern translation to date, that renders this particular Greek word ( Pem'po ) this way. Shocking indeed!!!
Nevertheless to get the proper understanding of the matter and really see why ... why this was done by Watchtower teachers, let's insert the proper word and reread the verses in question. [Please reread.] Now, what did you find? Why, you found that Jehovah himself "sends" the operation of error as an immediate recompense because they "did not accept the love of the Truth." ( verse 10 ) No, Jehovah did not "let...it go" to them, as would be the case of the way the WTBTS teaches the Emperor Constantine's fusion of religion and state occurred in the 4th century — yes, across hundreds and hundreds of years, centuries of time. No, but Jehovah actually "SENDS" the "operation of error" or "strong delusions," just as the verse says, to ALL THOSE WHO DO NOT LOVE TRUTH," isn't that so?
(For an indepth discussion of Godly Truth as a holy possession for His People, please see the article: You Will Know The Truth ... And The Truth Will Set You Free" .)
Actually, changing the wording from literally "sends" [Greek: Pem'po ] to "lets go" really changes the focus from a specific time period to an indefinite one. Yes, if one uses the word or expression "sends" here, in this verse specifically, then we are forced to address the question when, yes when did Jehovah actually "send" the operation of error? Yes when, specifically???
And of course, if you ever have opportunity to ask the Watchtower Society or its leading Bethel Elders that particular question posed above, you will find when you pose the question, they (elders) are at a TOTAL LOSS as to what to say to you. No, you will quickly find, they really can't give you a definite answer of any kind, to such a poignant question. In fact, you may find they are curiously baffled, perhaps visibly shaken even, isn't that true???
Think about it!
Taken from: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/199412/1/The-Man-of-Lawlessness-In-Our-Midst
(For an indepth discussion of the Greek word "Pem'po" taken from the New World Kingdom Interlinear Translation , please see the article entitled: Watchtower Society Contradicts The Bible -- When & Why??? )
Jay-Jay-
jackson family to host first christmasmichael jackson's family is to hold christmas celebrations for the first time this year (09) - putting their own religious beliefs aside for the superstar's three children.. the jacksons were all brought up as jehovah's witnesses, a christian-based religion which does not recognise birthdays or christmas.
but the thriller hitmaker deviated from his family's belief system and always enjoyed the holiday season with prince michael, 12, paris, 11, and seven-year-old prince michael ii.
and family matriarch katherine jackson, who has full custody of the kids, is determined to put their former traditions aside in december (09) to keep the youngsters' lives as normal as possible.
Hi Shopaholic:
You know, I forgot all about that new reality show on the Jacksons coming up this season!!!
Great Point!
And you are right, there will probably be exclusive footage on the first, ever Christmas celebration in the Jackson household too.
Hey, wait a minute!
What if a large number of JW youngsters see this on TV (the reality show) or read about it in the press, and start to ask their JW parents,
"...if Katherine Jackson and Michael's children can celebrate Christmas, and its okay, then why can't we do it too!!!"
Oh boy, can you imagine the rumble this could cause in JW-Land?
JW parents upset, angry everywhere, trying to explain to their children, just how the rich Jacksons can celebrate Christmas on TV even, and all other JW families having to abstain, unless they get the "axe."
I'm sure the mail coming in will be quite interesting for the Governing Body, after that show aires. Also, things will probably get interesting for the local elders too, maybe heated up, since many highly concerned JWs with children will approach them about this strange phenomenon.
Jws would say to their local elders:
"Yes, Brother Elder, please explain to me how one (rich & famous) JW family can celebrate Christmas, even on TV and in the press, but everybody else, every other JW family around the world better not try it, or they face a Judicial Committee for celebrating Christmas. Can you explain that to me?"
Can you imagine them (the elders) having to explain that sort of thing?
Anyone else agree this could produce some very strange results & reactions among those in JW-Land, as we head into this coming Christmas of 2009?
...Just wondering.
JJ
jackson family to host first christmasmichael jackson's family is to hold christmas celebrations for the first time this year (09) - putting their own religious beliefs aside for the superstar's three children.. the jacksons were all brought up as jehovah's witnesses, a christian-based religion which does not recognise birthdays or christmas.
but the thriller hitmaker deviated from his family's belief system and always enjoyed the holiday season with prince michael, 12, paris, 11, and seven-year-old prince michael ii.
and family matriarch katherine jackson, who has full custody of the kids, is determined to put their former traditions aside in december (09) to keep the youngsters' lives as normal as possible.
You are soooooooooooooooooo right. When you think about it, it just makes you mad as fire.
Amen, Brother Woods!!!
JJ
jackson family to host first christmasmichael jackson's family is to hold christmas celebrations for the first time this year (09) - putting their own religious beliefs aside for the superstar's three children.. the jacksons were all brought up as jehovah's witnesses, a christian-based religion which does not recognise birthdays or christmas.
but the thriller hitmaker deviated from his family's belief system and always enjoyed the holiday season with prince michael, 12, paris, 11, and seven-year-old prince michael ii.
and family matriarch katherine jackson, who has full custody of the kids, is determined to put their former traditions aside in december (09) to keep the youngsters' lives as normal as possible.
Hi Blondie,
Soooooooooooooo, are we to assume, Joe Jackson and Katherine Jackson are NOT really separated then, for 10 years, because of that statement from Katherine?
And further, should we assume they are NOT really living in separate states, under separate roofs?
And no matter about their separation, we must continue to say, "their marriage is still strong", because she said so ... right???
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
This means Blondie, Jehovah's Witnesses around the world can continue say with a clear conscience, Katherine is still following her husband's "headship" dictates and wishes here, in allowing a "Christmas" celebration at her house for Michael's children, as her daughter announced in the news. A "celebration" that Katherine Jackson is reported to have said in the news, she will be voluntarily participating in, is that right? That way, Jehovah's Witnesses are in the clear? No reproach on the JW Organization here, in this instance.
Blondie, you believe, in Katherine Jackson's mind, Joe Jackson is still the "head" of her household, and he controls what goes on under her roof, even though he lives in another state, for the last 10 years???
Is that right, Blondie?
JJ
jackson family to host first christmasmichael jackson's family is to hold christmas celebrations for the first time this year (09) - putting their own religious beliefs aside for the superstar's three children.. the jacksons were all brought up as jehovah's witnesses, a christian-based religion which does not recognise birthdays or christmas.
but the thriller hitmaker deviated from his family's belief system and always enjoyed the holiday season with prince michael, 12, paris, 11, and seven-year-old prince michael ii.
and family matriarch katherine jackson, who has full custody of the kids, is determined to put their former traditions aside in december (09) to keep the youngsters' lives as normal as possible.
Hi Blondie,
You think that Katherine Jackson is NOT really going to "celebrate" Christmas? That maybe this is just a publicity stunt of some kind? Or, maybe her daughter is just speaking out of turn here? That, Ms. Jackson never really said this?
I'm confused.
JJ
jackson family to host first christmasmichael jackson's family is to hold christmas celebrations for the first time this year (09) - putting their own religious beliefs aside for the superstar's three children.. the jacksons were all brought up as jehovah's witnesses, a christian-based religion which does not recognise birthdays or christmas.
but the thriller hitmaker deviated from his family's belief system and always enjoyed the holiday season with prince michael, 12, paris, 11, and seven-year-old prince michael ii.
and family matriarch katherine jackson, who has full custody of the kids, is determined to put their former traditions aside in december (09) to keep the youngsters' lives as normal as possible.
Hi all,
This is mind-blowing information!!!
You mean, Katherine Jackson is openly saying to the press, she is going to CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS, of her own free will???
Which is like a double-dog dare to the Watchtower Society, that they'd better not have anything to say about it, either???
And, the fact that her husband hasn't lived with her for over 10 years, soooooooo she is the "boss" of her household, the head of that household, as the "elders" in her congregation well know???
That means she makes all the decisions for that household, about everything going on in that household, right???
Wow!!!
I can't believe it!
Without a doubt, this proves "Money Rules" in the Watchtower Society, just like all of the other churches ... yep, its all about the money, how much you have and all. If you have enough $$$, you can do anything you want, including CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS and nobody says nothing about it!!!
This is monumentally big!
Thanks. I am most certainly going to "spread the word" about this recent news event on Katherine Jackson, and what she is able to do, with IMPUNITY in the Watchtower, because of her massive BANK ACCOUNT!
JJ
