Posts by youdontknowhim

26

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

youdontknowhim

I sincerely apologize for being a little repugnant or if I displayed any aversion.

Several years ago my message was posted on AOLs message board and the comprehension for everyone on the board seems to think it was free from obscurity or any ambiguity.

Now, I am in no fashion whatsoever giving any implication that anyone here has some kind of illiteracy problem or has the inability to comprehend simple sentence structure.

My posts are written so the average mind can easily grasp content. Perhaps I should expand with slight elaborations on my sentence structure so the feebleminded individuals will not have any complications of comprehending and grasping the nature of my message.

If I choose this style of writing, it is possible the majority will not understand a DARN WORD I JUST SAID.

SHALL I MAINTAIN MY ORIGINAL WRITING STYLE OR DO YOU WISH FOR ME TO CONTINUE WRITING CRAP LIKE THE CRAP YOU JUST READ ABOVE??

26

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

youdontknowhim

Butalbee writes:

What the hell are you talking about here?

Read the post and perhaps you will get the light. The post is written in simple and elaborate English.

SunshineToo writes:

Thank you for your post, youdontknowhim

Youre very welcome sunshine. At least someone understands what was written.

26

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

youdontknowhim

The Church Fathers

were leading religious teachers saith the Watchtower?

If you ever read the magazine Should you believe in the Trinity by the Watchtower, the reader will get the impression the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers theology was the belief of Our Lord Jesus Christ was not God.

On page 7 of this magazine you will read the statement The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledge to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christs birth. What they taught is of interest.

If this is true and a fact the Church Fathers were leading religious teachers as the Watchtower claims, I would like to know, who acknowledged the Church Fathers as LEADING RELIGIOUS TEACHERS IN THE EARLY CENTURIES AFTER CHRISTS BIRTH? Was it Jehovahs Witnesses who acknowledge the Church Father as leading teachers?

Page 7 continues as the Watchtower begins to quote the Church Fathers. The reader will immediately get the impression the Church Fathers didnt believe Jesus was God. How does the Watchtower do this? They do this by partially taking quotations, removing certain words and statements and also combining statements that have no relations on what the Church Father originally intended to say to the reader. May I remind the Watchtower what they said on their famous publication Qualified to be Ministers; 1967; page 199;

Be very careful to be accurate in all statements you make. Use evidence honestly. In quotations, do not twist the meaning of a writer or speaker or use only partial quotations to give a different thought than the person intended. When you make references to the Scripture or to any other authority, be definite. And use reliable, capable authority. The Bible is the most conclusive and reliable of all. Quoting from official publication of an organization to show what they believe is good. Also one wants to use evidence from an authority that the hearers will accept.

Hypocritically, the Watchtower has broken every rule regarding their own statement. Did the Watchtower provide references to any authority they quoted in the magazine Should you believe in the Trinity? No, they didnt provide a bibliography for all the quotations of the sources they quoted. Did the Watchtower use an authority the hearers will accept?

Well, do Jehovahs Witnesses acknowledge the Church Fathers as an authority? The Watchtower did say The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledge to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christs birth. I guess Jehovahs Witnesses must accept the Church Fathers as authority since the Watchtower is quoting them.

If you ever had a Bible study with a Jehovahs Witness at your home and ask, Have you ever read the works of the Church Fathers? 100% of the time they will say NO. They will take for granted whatever the Watchtower writes and claims in their publications.

The fact is, the Watchtower encourages Jehovahs Witnesses not to research anything the society writes because the brothers of the organization has done it for them. Indeed the Jehovahs Witnesses will read the following encouraging words from The Watchtower; June 1, 1967; page 338; Dont waste your time researching. The brothers in the organization are assigned to do that very thing.

Well, since the brothers of the Watchtower are assigned to research for Jehovahs Witnesses and Jehovahs Witnesses are encouraged not to waste their time researching, let us check what the brothers of the Watchtower has failed to tell Jehovahs Witnesses regarding our wonderful Church Fathers who in fact are labeled by the Watchtower as LEADING RELIGIOUS TEACHERS.

Justin Martyr:

...who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said,..

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 352.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said the first-begotten Word of God is even God? Why didnt the Watchtower quote these words of Justin in the magazine? Do you believe it was Jesus that appeared in the burning bush?

Justin Martyr:

...although the words of the Psalm expressly proclaim that reference is made to the everlasting King, i.e., to Christ. For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and angel, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born..

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 415.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said Christ in the book of the Palms is Priest AND GOD?

Justin Martyr:

...which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts, and Jacob, in parable by the Holy Spirit; and your interpreters, as God says, are foolish, since they say that reference is...

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 418.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said he is going to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts? I thought there is only one God and One Lord of Host which is the Father?

Justin Martyr:

Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet. Sing ye to our God, sing ye: sing to our King, sing ye; for God is King of all the earth: sing with understanding. God has ruled over the nations. God sits upon His holy throne

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 419.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said Psalm 46 is in reference to Christ?

Justin Martyr:

But if you knew, Trypho, continued I, who He (Jesus) is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many,..

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 535.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when Justin claimed King David worshipped Christ? This is a very interesting statement by Justin. Dont you think this is really interesting and this teaching should be included your magazine Should you Believe in the Trinity. Why didnt the Watchtower add this teaching of Justin? I mean really, this is very interesting theology.

Justin Martyr:

But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore, knowing them in reason and truth, and declaring without grudging to every one who wishes to learn, as we have been taught.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 304.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said We worship and adore the Holy Spirit?

Justin Martyr:

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Justin Martyr); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 309.

Do you accept Justin Martyr as an authority when he said we reasonably worship Jesus?

Irenaeus:

The Word was with God, for He was the beginning; and the Word was God, of course, for that which is begotten of God is God

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Irenaeus); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 675.

Do you accept Irenaeus as an authority when he said What is begotten of God is God?

Irenaeus:

Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Irenaeus); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 680.

Do you accept Irenaeus as an authority when he said Jesus is our Lord and God?

Irenaeus:

That John knew the one and the same Word of God, and that He was the only begotten, and that He became incarnate for our salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume I; (Irenaeus); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 910.

Do you accept Irenaeus as an authority when he said Jesus became incarnate for our salvation? You dont believe in the incarnation of Christ do you? The Church Fathers did however.

Hippolytus:

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume V; (Hippolytus); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 314.

Do you accept Hippolytus as an authority when he said Jesus is from God himself wherefore the Logos is God being the substance of God?

Origen:

...listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. For who else was He which is to come than Christ?

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume IV; (Origen); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 520.

Do you accept Origen as an authority when he said Rev 1:4 is in reference to Christ and calls Him the Almighty?

Origen:

After this, as though his object was to swell the size of his book, he advises us to choose Jonah rather than Jesus as our God;

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume IV; (Origen); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 1307.

Do you accept Origen as an authority when he said Jesus is our God?

Origen:

I and My Father are one. We worship one God, the Father and the Son

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume IV; (Origen); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 1328.

Do you accept Origen as an authority when he said We worship the Father and the Son.

Origen:

I am sure no human power or language can explain, unless as prostrate suppliants we pray to the Word, and Wisdom, and Righteousness Himself, who is the only-begotten Son of God, and who, pouring Himself by His graces into our senses,

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume IV; (Origen); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 603.

Do you accept Origen as authority when he said we pray to the Word Who is Jesus?

Origen:

for our duty is to pray to the Most High God alone, and to the Only-begotten, the First-born of the whole creation

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, A.Roberts and J. Donaldson; Volume IV; (Origen); The Sage Digital Library Collection; Version 1.0, Albany, Or, USA, 1996, Page 1340 and 1341

Do you accept Origen as an authority when he said It is our duty to pray the Most High God alone and to the Only begotten, the First Born of the whole creation who is Jesus Christ?

I must admit, the Watchtower is correct regarding the Church Fathers. What the Church Fathers taught is in fact very interesting theology. They taught is OK to pray to Jesus, they worshipped Jesus, Jesus is God and the same substance of God, worshipped and adore the Holy Spirit. These teachings or doctrines the Church Fathers taught were never mentioned in the Watchtower magazine Should you Believe the Trinity. Gee I wonder why?

_____________________________________________________________________________

The following questions below were taken from JCisGod98 post from The AOL's message board. At this time, no one has answered them. We have been waiting for over 5 years. Perhaps a Jehovah's Witness can shed some light on these questions.

QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT THE BROCHURE

SHOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY

by

THE WATCHTOWER AND BIBLE TRACT SOCIETY

1. WHY DIDNT THE WATCHTOWER PROVIDE A BIBLIOGRAPHY OR ANY REFERENCES FOR ALL OF THE QUOTATIONS IN THE BROCHURE INCLUDING THE CHURCH FATHERS?

2. DID YOU STUDY THIS BROCHURE BY GOING TO THE LIBRARY AND LOOKING UP ALL THESE QUOTATIONS ESPECIALLY THE ANTE-NICENE CHURCH FATHERS?

3. DID THE CHURCH FATHERS TEACH JESUS WAS GOD?

4. IF YOU READ FOUR BOOKS REGARDING CHURCH HISTORY BY FOUR DIFFERENT AUTHORS. EACH OF THESE AUTHORS HAVE A DIFFERENT RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND. THREE AUTHORS ASSERTS AND HAVE THE SAME POINT OF VIEW, THAT THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY. HOWEVER, ONE AUTHOR CLAIMS THE OPPOSITE. WHAT ACTION WOULD YOU TAKE TO RECTIFY THIS CONTRADICTION? HOW WOULD YOU RESEARCH THIS CONTRADICTION?

5. IF THE CHURCH FATHERS LIKE JUSTIN MARTYR, IRENAEUS, CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA, TERTULLIAN, HIPPOLYTUS AND OTHERS DIDNT TEACH THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, THEN WHO WERE THEIR OPPOSING CONTEMPORARIES? IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT RELIGIOUS GROUP DID BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS GOD ALMIGHTY? OBVIOUSLY, ACCORDING TO YOUR BROCHURE IT CANT BE THE ANTE-NICENE CHURCH FATHERS THAT BELIEVED JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY. WHO THEN BELIEVED THIS?

6. IF YOU STUDIED THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH THEN YOU MUST BE FAMILIAR WITH A HERETIC NAME CERINTHUS. POLYCARP, A STUDENT OF JOHN THE APOSTLE QUOTES JOHN SAYING CERINTHUS IS THE ENEMY OF TRUTH. WHAT DOCTRINES DID CERINTHUS TEACH? WHY IS JOHN THE APOSTLE LABELING HIM A HERETIC?

7. IF THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY AND THEY WERE CONSIDERED THE FATHERS OF THE CHURCH, SHOULDNT THE WATCHTOWER BE TEACHING IT ALSO? WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN YOUR BROCHURE WHEN IT SAYS The ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledge to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christs birth. What they taught is of interest. WHO ACKNOWLEDGED THE CHURCH FATHERS AS LEADING RELIGIOUS TEACHERS? WAS IT JEHOVAHS WITNESSES THAT ACKNOWLEDGED THEM AS LEADING TEACHERS? WHO? WHAT WAS SO INTERESTING IN THEIR TEACHINGS?

8. DO YOU THINK THAT A RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION OR AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WOULD DELIBERATELY FALSIFY INFORMATION IN ORDER TO PROVE A TEACHING IS FALSE, HONESTLY FELT IN HIS OR HER HEART THAT IT WERE INDEED A FALSE TEACHING?

9. IF ONE INDIVIDUAL WAS MISQUOTED, YOU CAN RIGHTFULLY SAY THIS WAS A SMALL ACCIDENT OR A TYPO, BUT IF MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUALS WERE MISQUOTED, LETS SAY SEVEN OF THEM (THE CHURCH FATHERS), WOULD YOU CONSIDER THIS AN ACCIDENT OR THIS WAS DONE DELIBERATELY?

10. IF THE MEN OF THE WATCHTOWER WHO WROTE THE MAGAZINE SHOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY DELIBERATELY MISQUOTED INDIVIDUALS, COULDNT WE THEREFORE SAY THAT THESE MEN ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY AND THEY ARE JUST PLAYING MIND GAMES WITH THE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES?

11. IF THE CHURCH FATHERS TAUGHT THE TRINITY, WHY DIDNT THE WATCHTOWER QUOTE THEIR OPPONENTS? IS IT BECAUSE THEIR OPPONENTS WERE HERETICS? WHY WERE THEIR OPPONENTS HERETICS? WHAT WAS SO HERETICAL ABOUT THEIR TEACHINGS?

12. WERE THE CHURCH FATHERS JEHOVAHS WITNESSES? WHAT DOCTRINES THAT THEY TAUGHT LABELS THEM AS JEHOVAHS WITNESSES?

3

Test A JW with the Following Questions

by youdontknowhim in

do you believe test

see old watchtower magazine from prior to 1930 known as the watchtower herald of christs presence.

the watchtower; sept. 15, 1922; page 278; jesus returned in 1874 to power.. .

youdontknowhim

DO YOU BELIEVE TEST

Test a Jehovahs Witness belief today with the following questions: You will be surprise of the answer they will give you.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Jesus was crucified on a cross?

See old Watchtower Magazine from prior to 1930 known as The Watchtower Herald of Christs presence. In the upper right hand corner of the cover page there is a cross inserted in a crown which is one of the Masonic symbols.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Michael worships Jesus Christ?

The Watchtower; Nov. 1879; Page 4; His position (Jesus) is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having All power in heaven and earth. Hence it is said, let all the angels of God worship him: [That must include Michael the chief angel, hence Michael in not the Son of God] and the reason is because he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they.

The Watchtower; July 15, 1898; Page 216; Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped and properly so.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Christmas is important no matter what date it is observed?

The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1903; Page 457; Christmas is an important event and it should be celebrated and properly join all those whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Savior.

The Watchtower; Dec. 1, 1904; Page 364; Since the celebration of our Lords birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate-Christmas Day.

The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1926; Page 371; Christmas is very important regardless of the Date it occurred.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Pastor Russell was the faithful and discreet slave?

The Watchtower; April 15, 1904; page 125. The faithful and discreet slave is one individual and not a company of people.

The Watchtower; Dec. 1, 1916; page 357 & 374. Pastor Russell claimed he was the faithful discreet slave in private conversation with people.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Jesus returned in 1874?

The Watchtower; Feb. 1881; page 188; A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. New light never extinguishes older light but adds to it. Jesus returned invisibly in 1874.

The Battle of Armageddon; Studies in the Scriptures; Series IV; 1897; page 621; Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874 A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets

The Watchtower; Sept. 15, 1922; page 278; Jesus returned in 1874 to power.

The Watchtower; March 1, 1923; page 67; The scriptures show that his second presence was due in 1874.

The Watchtower; Jan. 1, 1924; page 5, Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874.

Creation; 1927; (2,175,000 edition); page 289; The scriptural proof is that the period of his presence (Jesus) and the day of Gods preparation is a period from 1874 A.D. forward.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega?

The Finished Mystery; 1917; Page 15; I am the Alpha and the Omega. The first and the last. Our Lords great honor is shown in that He was not only the first of Gods creation, but the last.

The Finished Mystery; 1917; Page 57; Jesus was not raised in the flesh.

The Finished Mystery; 1917; Page 318; Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Roman 10:14 is applied to Jesus Christ?

The Watchtower; Dec. 1, 1903; Page 3282; Roman 10:14 is applied to Jesus.

DO YOU BELIEVE, All the creatures in heaven and on earth worships the Son Jesus.

The Watchtower; Aug. 15, 1941; Page 252; All the creatures in heaven and on earth worships the Son Jesus.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Jehovah disposed of Jesus body by dissolving it into constituent elements of atoms?

The Watchtower; Sept. 1, 1953; Page 518; What happened to the perfect fleshly body of Jesus after his death? The Scriptures answer: It was disposed of by Jehovah God, dissolved into its constituent elements of atoms.

DO YOU BELIEVE, ex-priest Johannes Greber, who is a spiritualist claimed spirits helped him in his translation of the New Testament?

The Watchtower; Feb. 15, 1956; Page 110; The Watchtower quotes a ex-priest Johannes Greber, who is a spiritualist states spirits helped him in his translation of the New Testament.

The Watchtower; Feb. 15, 1956; Page 111; Late in the summer of 1923 Gods holy spirits contacted Pastor Greber. In his spare time he started to work on his book Communication with the Spirit World. Later he translated the New Testament with the help of Gods spirit World. At times, he was given the correct answers in large illuminated letters and words passing before his eyes.

DO YOU BELIEVE, Jesus returned in 1881 for the anointed class and the door was shut and no one can be a member of the anointed class at this point?

The Watchtower; Oct/Nov. 1881; page 289; Jesus returned in 1881 for the anointed class. The door was shut and no one can be a member of the anointed class at this point.

DO YOU BELIEVE, The six volumes of Studies in the Scriptures are practically the bible itself and all you need is to read these volumes without the Bible and still be in the truth?

The Watchtower; Sept 10, 1910; page 4685. The six volumes of Studies in the Scriptures are practically the bible itself. Reading the bible alone for 10 years, a person can go into darkness, but reading the six volumes of Studies in the Scriptures without the bible, the person can be in the light.

DO YOU BELIEVE, the Bible has mistakes?

The Watchtower; April 1, 1920; page 103; It is freely admitted, The Finish Mystery has mistakes, so does the bible.

DO YOU BELIEVE, the Holy Spirit has been taken away in 1918 when Christ came to the temple to gather the faithful ones?

Preservation; 1932; pages 193-194; The Holy Spirit was taken away from the Watchtower when Jesus pronounced Judgement in 1918 when he came to the temple and gathered the faithful ones.

DO YOU BELIEVE, angels sends the message to the Watchtower and no longer the Holy Spirit?

Vindication; 1932; page 250. It is angels that sends the message to the Watchtower and has been rendering this service to the remnant since 1919.

DO YOU BELIEVE, 6000 years of human history ended in 1972?

The Truth Shall Make You Free, 1943, page 152; 6000 years of human history ended in 1972

DO YOU BELIEVE, The millennium began in 1873?

Thy Kingdom Come, page 305; The millennium began in 1873

DO YOU BELIEVE, Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a second opportunity?

Plan of the Ages, page 110; Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a second opportunity

The Watchtower, March 1965 page 139; Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a second opportunity

DO YOU BELIEVE, Michael the archangel is the pope of Rome?

The Finish Mystery; The Watchtower and Bible Tract Society; 1917; page 188-189; And there was war in heaven. between the two ecclesiastical powers, pagan Rome and Papal Rome. Michael Who as God the Pope H275; C62 and His angels The Bishops...

A Jehovahs Witness today will say NO to everyone of those questions. This is old light for them. This was truth and is no longer consider truth.

Did anyone ever see the Steven Spielbergs movie Back to the future? Picture yourself as a Jehovahs Witness and you get into a Time Machine and go back 100 years to the year 1900. You visit the Governing Body at Bethel in Brooklyn to warn them about the doctrine they currently believe is old light and it is no longer consider the truth in the 21 century. You show them the evidence of new printed articles of the future publication by the organization refuting these doctrines above. What do you think the Governing Body will tell you as the future Jehovahs Witness?

Heres what the governing body of the Watchtower will tell the future Jehovahs Witness:

1. You are an apostate and not a true Jehovahs Witness. This is the truth because we are Gods Spirit directed organization. These doctrines we believe today in our generation are true and are taken from the Bible.

2. You are not a true Jehovahs Witness unless you believe these doctrines.

Edited by - youdontknowhim on 5 August 2002 10:6:9

7

NWT Bible has Clarity and clear language

by youdontknowhim in

the watchtower writes about their wonderful new world translation: .

"outstanding among bibles is the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures...accuracy, uniformity, clarity, and up-to-date language mark this excellent work.

according to the watchtower the nwt has accuracy, uniformity and most of clarity and up to date language.

youdontknowhim

Is this who I think it is?

I heard you could be the Sauce?

Waz uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

7

NWT Bible has Clarity and clear language

by youdontknowhim in

the watchtower writes about their wonderful new world translation: .

"outstanding among bibles is the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures...accuracy, uniformity, clarity, and up-to-date language mark this excellent work.

according to the watchtower the nwt has accuracy, uniformity and most of clarity and up to date language.

youdontknowhim

The Watchtower writes about their wonderful New World Translation:

"Outstanding among Bibles is the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures...Accuracy, uniformity, clarity, and up-to-date language mark this excellent work. Bible study aids without equal make this an indispensable help to sincere searching students of God's Word" (What Has Religion Done For Mankind, 1951, p. 351.)

Yes indeed. According to the Watchtower the NWT has accuracy, uniformity and most of CLARITY AND UP TO DATE LANGUAGE.

Lets take a look at a verse and you let me know if this NWT bible has CLARITY AND UPDATE LANGUAGE.

King James Version: Ps 23:5

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. KJV

Now lets read the same verse in the NWT

New World Translation: Ps 23:5

You arrange before me a table in front of those showing hostility to me. With oil you have greased my head.

Do you Jehovahs Witnesses grease each other or anoint each other?

Can you say....The Anointed Class are not anointed....THEY ARE THE GREASED CLASS BABY!

Yes, ladies and gentlemen this bible has CLARITY AND UP TO DATE LANGUAGE!

I dont want the anointing....give me the grease man!

Grease is the word... is the word .... is the word ... is the word ... is the word

Can you name that tune for $100.00?

1

Jesus inspects all the churches

by youdontknowhim in

according to the watchtower in one of their publications claimed jesus christ came in 1919 to inspect christendom.

see below for the actual quotation: .

time of inspection by the slave's master .

youdontknowhim

Did Jesus Really come in 1919 to inspect Christendom?

According to the Watchtower in one of their publications claimed Jesus Christ came in 1919 to inspect Christendom. See below for the actual quotation:

TIME OF INSPECTION BY THE SLAVE'S MASTER
Without a question of doubt, it was a real time for inspection of the Master's "slave" class. All the facts of the case argue that the Master came for the work of inspection at the time. Such a thing was to be expected according to the prophecy of Malachi 3:1-5. Of course, the sectarian churches of Christendom had made a wartime record for themselves, an open record that had a heavy bearing on their claim to be disciples and slaves of Jesus Christ. Could they, by even their latest record down till 1919, prove that they themselves were the composite "faithful and discreet slave" class of the heavenly Lord and Master, Jesus Christ? He as Judge would indicate what his findings were by the way he thereafter dealt with the hundreds of religious sects of Christendom." (God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached, 1973, p. 349.)

We can therefore say, Jesus actually came to inspect Christendom and Christendom was proven not to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave. So in 1919 we can conclude The Watchtower was chosen by Jesus to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Jesus dealt with the hundreds of religious sects of Christendom. What did these sects do or believed to deserve this rejection?

I am sure when Jesus Christ supposedly came in 1919 to inspect these Christian sects, the Watchtower was not exempted from this inspection. Why dont we inspect ourselves what the Watchtower believed prior to 1919? Perhaps our Lord Jesus Christ accidentally overlooked something when he conducted His inspection.

Prior to 1919 when Jesus Christ came to inspect Christendom Jehovahs Witnesses believed in:

Armageddon was supposed to happen in 1914 and end in that same year with the earths rulership completely overthrown. The Time is at Hand; 1888 (1911 edition); page 101; The Quote: The battle of the great day of God Almighty will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earths present rulership, is already commenced. (Was the earth's rulership completely overthrown at the end of 1914 Ad? What happened in 1914? What happen to this prophecy?)

Christendom was supposed to pass away by the end of 1914. Thy Kingdom Come; 1891; page 152; The Quote: By the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men calls Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy. (Did Christendom pass away at the end of AD 1914? It looks like Christendom is still on the earth.)

God was suppose to destroy Christendom by the year 1918 and those that escape this destruction will come to the works of pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. The Finished Mystery; 1917; page 485; The Quote: Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (Did God really destroy the churches and their members in the year 1918?)

Jesus Christ is worshipped by Michael the Archangel. Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. The Watchtower; Nov. 1879; Page 4; The Quote: His position (Jesus) is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having All power in heaven and earth. Hence it is said, let all the angels of God worship him: [That must include Michael the chief angel, hence Michael in not the Son of God] and the reason is because he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they. 2 nd Quote from: The Watchtower; July 15, 1898; Page 216; Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped and properly so.

JWs celebrated Christmas. The Watchtower; Dec. 15, 1903; Page 457; The Quote: Christmas is an important event and it should be celebrated and properly join all those whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Savior.

Jesus was crucified on a cross. See All of The Watchtower Magazine prior to 1931 known as Zions Watchtower The Herald of Christ Presence. There is cross on every front cover in the upper right hand. The cross is inserted in a crown. This was a logotype for the Watchtower.

Interesting enough, Jesus chose a group of people that believe angels and people on earth worshiped Him properly, didnt believe Jesus was Michael the Archangel, believed Jesus returned in 1874 and not 1914, celebrated Christmas, believed He was crucified on a cross and not to mention chose a group of people who prophesied falsely. Strangely, the Watchtower claims the worship of the Son Jesus and the cross is equated with paganism. Lets take a look at some of these false prophetic statements made by the Watchtower.

The Time is at Hand; 1888 (1911 edition); page 101; The battle of the great day of God Almighty will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earths present rulership, is already commenced. (Was the earth's rulership completely overthown at the end of 1914 Ad? What happened in 1914?)

The Watchtower; Jan. 15, 1892; page 22; The date of the close of that battle is definitely marked in scripture as Oct. 1914; It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October 1874. (Was the battle of Armageddon over in Oct. 1914? When did the battle of Armageddon really begin according to this statement? And what do you mean it will definitely close by Oct. 1914?)

The Time is at Hand; 1888; (1911 edition); page 77; The Kingdom of God will obtain full universal control some time before the end of A.D. 1914. (Did the Kingdom of God obtain full universal control before the end of 1914?)

Thy Kingdom Come; 1891; page 152; By the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men calls Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy. (Did Christendom pass away at the end of AD 1914? It looks like Christendom is still on the earth.)

The Battle of Armageddon; Studies in the Scriptures; Series IV; 1897; page 621; Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874 A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets. (Watchtower stated Jesus was present since 1874 not 1914.)

One book that really caught my attention was The Finished Mystery which is the last volume of 7 in the series of Studies in the Scriptures. Volume 7 was published in 1917 and had this to say:

The Lord (Jesus Christ) assumes all interest in and responsibility for the complete series of Studies in the Scriptures...

It is quite interesting the Lord Jesus was responsible for the volumes of the complete series of Studies in the Scriptures. I dont mean to disrespect my Lord and Savior but I believe Jesus forgot some things in this last volume before he inspected all of the Christian sects in 1919. Not only does Volume 7 - The Finished Mystery gave total responsibility to our Lord Jesus for the publication of the Studies of the Scriptures but it also had this to say:

Michael the Archangel is the Pope of Rome and his angels are the Bishops. The Finish Mystery; The Watchtower and Bible Tract Society; 1917; page 188-189; The Quote: And there was war in heaven. between the two ecclesiastical powers, pagan Rome and Papal Rome. Michael Who as God the Pope H275; C62 and His angels The Bishops...
Pastor Charles Taze Russell is still managing the harvest work of the Watchtower even though he has been dead for 1 year since the publication of the this last volume. Yikes, I thought the dead know nothing and are annihilated? How did Charles pull that one off? The Finish Mystery; The Watchtower and Bible Tract Society; 1917; page 144-145: The Quote: And another angel Not the voice of the Lord, mentioned in the preceding chapter, but the corporate body the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, which pastor Russell formed to finish his work. This verse shows that, though pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work.
Job in the bible was the first railroad man. Yes if you can believe it! See page 84 and 85. The quotes are too long to post.

If you were to ask a Jehovahs Witness today, DO YOU BELIEVE IN THESE ABSURD DOCTRINES TODAY? 100% of the time you will get a resounding NO! Funny, Jesus did believe in these doctrine after all, he did choose the Watchtower in 1919 after the inspection and these doctrines were known as THE TRUTH.

Why dont Jehovahs Witnesses believe in these doctrines today?

The Watchtower is actually labeling our Lord Jesus as a liar. What was truth back then is no longer consider truth today.

Why would anyone follow an organization that constantly changes its doctrine and then claims it is Gods Organization and guided by Gods Holy Spirit?

The million dollar question is: Why would Jesus choose pagans in 1919 as the faithful discreet slave?

Edited by - youdontknowhim on 3 August 2002 23:40:33

4

The Watchtower believes in the Trinity

by youdontknowhim in

at least trinitarian scholars dont trash the bible and also do not claim christianity is pagan religion.

again, for jehovahs witnesses it doesnt matter who arthur weigal is and what he believes.

do jehovahs witnesses claim arthur weigal as a reliable and capable authority?

youdontknowhim

COMF writes: Dude, is this really the best use you could make of your time?

____________________________________________________

The Lord Christ gave me the patience and wisdom to show the errors of the Watchtowers and other cults. My time is His time.

4

The Watchtower believes in the Trinity

by youdontknowhim in

at least trinitarian scholars dont trash the bible and also do not claim christianity is pagan religion.

again, for jehovahs witnesses it doesnt matter who arthur weigal is and what he believes.

do jehovahs witnesses claim arthur weigal as a reliable and capable authority?

youdontknowhim

Naw,

The Watchtower doesn't misquote everyone. They only misquote Trinitarians. People like the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, Greek Scholars outside the organization that claim John 1:1 is referring to the deity of Christ.

As for liberals who trash the Bible, there is no need to misquote them because the Watchtower agrees with their position. There is no need to misquote a Bible trasher. So like I said before, 99% of the Watchtower are misquotations, the other 1% are accurate quotations by disgusting liberals who trash the Bible. The point the Watchtower's has proven is, THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY.

4

The Watchtower believes in the Trinity

by youdontknowhim in

at least trinitarian scholars dont trash the bible and also do not claim christianity is pagan religion.

again, for jehovahs witnesses it doesnt matter who arthur weigal is and what he believes.

do jehovahs witnesses claim arthur weigal as a reliable and capable authority?

youdontknowhim

THE WATCHTOWER DOES BELIEVE IN

THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY

This might be a shocker to Jehovah's Witnesses but their own organization believes in the Trinity. Whether Jehovah's Witnesses like it or not, accept it or not, it's the darn truth. How do I know for sure the Watchtower believes in the Trinity? By logical reasoning. Lets take a look at this.

The Watchtower published a magazine called "Should you believe in the Trinity." The objective of this magazine is to prove the doctrine of the Trinity is false and it originated from paganism and it should this doctrine should be rejected by all including Jehovah's Witnesses.

The Watchtower never printed the bibliography from any sources they quoted in order to substantiate or back up their claims.

99% of the sources were deliberately misquoted, taken out of context to mislead the reader and misrepresent the source.

Several individuals they quoted were liberals, agnostics and atheists whom all are Bible trashers and do not believe in the infallible word of God.

In order for the Watchtower to prove the falsehood of the Trinity, they must lie to their readers and followers by misquoting the sources and then hide behind a curtain by not printing the references hoping the reader would accept what was printed on the magazine.

I have to admit, it was diligent work and clever on a part of the Watchtower to take some time and figure out how to orchestrate a deceptive plan like this. These so called anointed men took the time to read the Church Fathers, books from individuals that are outside of the organization, books from disgusting men who hate the Bible and selectively picked partial quotations from the source to prove their claim.

Am I suppose to believe the Watchtower is correct about the Trinity by reading this horrible misrepresentation material Should you believe in the Trinity?

Why does the Watchtower have to lie, misrepresent facts, in order to prove a doctrine is false and filled with paganism? The reason they lie is because they have no circumstantial evidence to back up their claim. They cannot find a Trinitarian or qualified individual that agrees with the Watchtowers position. If they do find a Trinitarian the Watchtower has to misquote the individual by removing a particular passage or text to misrepresent the source and the reader as well.

Since the Watchtower cant come up with any good sources, they must dig deep into the bowels of the graves and what do they come up with? They resurrect decomposed dead Russians, Germans, not to mention disgusting liberal theologians like Adolf Harnack, Albert Lyman, Alvan Lamson, Andrew Norton, Edward Gibbon, Siegfried Morenz, Washburn E. Hopkins, Will Durant and their famous Bible trasher of all Bible trashers who has been quoted 4 times in their brochure, the star of the Jehovahs organization Arthur Weigall. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, these are the people the Watchtower can come up with who have been dead for almost 100 years.

I could care less if these individuals have Doctorate PHD degrees in comparative religion or sociology etc. The second these individuals admit Christianity is a pagan religion and the Bible is not the infallible word of God, you have no business quoting these individuals. You are to immediately to turn away from these Bible trashers.

2 Tim 3:5

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

KJV

Yes, the Watchtower truly believes in the doctrine of the Trinity, why else would they lie? If an individual believes in a particular thing such as Trinity is false and is filled with paganism and this individual has no circumstantial evidence or viable facts to prove their point or belief, the only option the individual has, IS TO LIE. Have you ever asked yourself , why do people lie?

People lie for one reason. They lie to distort the truth and that is the agenda. The Watchtower in their heart believes in the Trinity but since they have been saying for years they dont believe it, they are too prideful to admit they were wrong. To save face, they wouldnt dare come out in the open and admit they were wrong! So what do they do, THEY LIE TO DISTORT THE TRUTH!

What does the Bible say about those who lie to deceit people?

Ps 5:6

6 Thou dost destroy those who speak falsehood; NAS

This is a very scary verse ladies and gentlemen. God destroys those who speak falsehood.

Prov 14:25

25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies. KJV

Rev 21:8

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. KJV

Quoting Authorities

If you ever noticed, the Watchtower loves to quote scholars outside the organization but they never quote their own people regarding important subjects. Subjects like The Trinity, John 1:1 etc.

And if the Watchtower quotes any individuals that are outside the organization these individuals are mainly liberals who trash the bible and trash Christianity. There is no need to misquote these individuals. Obviously if a liberal is a scholar and states Jesus is not God and the Trinity is a pagan doctrine, Jehovahs Witnesses will accept this without a doubt and without question even without checking if these people are really scholars.

Jehovahs Witnesses wouldnt care less if these liberals are satan worshippers, bible trashers and haters of Christianity. This is not important to Jehovahs Witnesses but only what they say. Statements like Jesus is not God.

Let me put it this way. Those who trash God's word, doesn't believe the Bible is God's word is already doing the work of the devil. So in reality, the Watchtower is quoting the devil himself.

I ask this question to all Jehovahs Witness, would you believe any scholar regardless of their background and kind of scholarship on anything they say because they have a degree?

I guess for some Jehovahs Witnesses it doesnt matter just as long you have a degree in theology, comparative religion etc, you are good enough for them.

What about scholars that believe Jesus is God in other words that are Trinitarians? Arent they as reliable as well and if not...why not? At least Trinitarian scholars dont trash the bible and also do not claim Christianity is pagan religion. Whats the difference between a liberal scholar and a Trinitarian scholar?

It is interesting to note, whenever the Watchtower quotes a Trinitarian they misquote the individual by taking partial quotations, removing words and adding words to give a different context or meaning of what individual originally intended to say.

Indeed the Watchtower writes in their publication Qualified to be Ministers; 1967; page 199; Be very careful to be accurate in all statements you make. Use evidence honestly. In quotations, do not twist the meaning of a writer or speaker or use only partial quotations to give a different thought than the person intended. When you make references to the Scripture or to any other authority, be definite. And use reliable, capable authority. The Bible is the most conclusive and reliable of all. Quoting from official publication of an organization to show what they believe is good. Also one wants to use evidence from an authority that the hearers will accept.

There are a few important key points here. Lets bullet point them:

Make accurate statements
Use evidence
Dont twist the meaning of the writer or speaker
Dont use partial quotations to give a different thought of what the person intended.
Use reliable and capable authority.
Use an authority that the hearers will accept.

It would be so beautiful that everyone would follow these rules including the Watchtower, however the Watchtower hypocritically breaks each and everyone of them. Lets begin with a few quotations and check to see if these rules have been broken.

The Watchtower quotes a man by the name of Arthur Weigal from his book The paganism in Our Christianity stating The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.Should you Believe in the Trinity; page 11; 1989

This is the language Jehovahs Witnesses love to hear. Again, for Jehovahs Witnesses it doesnt matter who Arthur Weigal is and what he believes. The point is, he is a scholar and he said The origin of the Trinity is pagan. There are a few things Arthur Weigal said which is interesting to note. Take a look at what he said in the same book The paganism in Our Christianity which the source the Watchtower used in the magazine Should You Believe in the Trinity.

The Twelve Disciples Derived From Zodiac: p25
The 27 books of the New Testament Canon is invalid: p37
The name Mary is of pagan origin: p41
The virgin birth is of pagan origin: p44,47,60
The early life of Jesus is totally unknown: p49
Jesus born in a stable and wrapped in swaddling clothing is of pagan origin: p52
Miracles of Jesus are of pagan origin: p58
Jesus' 40 day temptation in wilderness is of pagan origin: p61
Earthquake at cross is false: p62
Jesus Crucifixion was a Jewish human sacrifice of pagan origin: p69,76
Jesus Side Pierced is of pagan origin: p83,84
Jesus never actually died, two angels were only men: p93,94
Ascension is of pagan origin: p100
Jesus suffering to save us is of pagan origin: p106
Jesus decent into Hades is of pagan origin: p113
Jesus "hung on a tree" is of pagan origin: p118
Jesus the "Rock of salvation" is of pagan origin: p129
Jesus the "slain Lamb of God" is of pagan origin: p131,132
"Washed in the Blood of the lamb" is of pagan origin: p132
Baptism and the Lord's Supper are both of pagan origin: p134, p146,147
Phrase "Soldiers of Christ" is of pagan origin: p135
Jesus as "the Shepherd" is of pagan origin: p136
Lords Supper is of pagan origin" p146,147
The idea of "blood atonement for sins" is of pagan origin: p152,158
Jesus "Begotten of God" is of pagan origin: p169
Incarnate Logos of Jn 1:1 is of pagan origin, The "pre-existent angel" is a 4th century concept: p172,173-175
The Trinity is of pagan origin: p182
The "Lord's Day" (Sunday) is of Pagan Origin: p209,210-211
Jewish Sabbath and the Sunday Lord's Day both of pagan origin: p136, p209,210-211

By reading his entire book which one will conclude the entire book bashes almost the entire Christian Doctrines by labeling them as pagan origin not to mention Watchtower doctrines as well!

Isnt Arthur Weigal a wonderful scholar and a great authority huh? You gotta love the guy. He trashes practically all of Christianity even some of the beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses. Yes ladies and gentlemen, this man was quoted by the Watchtower. Lets now go back to the key points from the Watchtowers rules of quoting individuals.

Make accurate statements

Yes, the Watchtower did quote Arthur Weigal accurately. There is no need to misquote this individual right? I did mention the Watchtower misquotes individuals 99% of the time. The 1% of accurate quotations are the liberals like this guy Weigal. Congratulations Watchtower, you quoted the individual correctly.

Use evidence

Well, the Watchtower managed to provide the name of the individual and the name of his book but forgot the page number and year the book was released not to mention Weigal's background. So they really didnt follow this rule to the letter.

Dont twist the meaning of the writer or speaker

No need to do this for this scholar huh!

Dont use partial quotations to give a different thought of what the person intended.

No need to do this either for this scholar.

Use reliable and capable authority.

Ahh! That is the million dollar question. Do Jehovahs Witnesses claim Arthur Weigal as a reliable and capable authority? The Watchtower has to, after all they did use him as a source.

Use an authority that the hearers will accept.

Another one million dollar question. Do you Jehovahs Witness who are the hearers, accept Arthur Weigal as an authority?

Yes ladies and gentlemen, this is the scholar the Watchtower can come up with to back up their claims. Weigal is a modernist liberal that the watchtower failed to identify. Why? Because Jehovahs Witnesses will never accept him as an authority if he is a liberal.

If this isnt enough, the Watchtower encourages the Jehovahs Witnesses to stay away from apostate literature because it is just like reading pornographic material. What do you call Arthur Weigals book? Is his book good material for Jehovahs Witnesses to read? I pose this question to the governing body, Would you recommend Arthur Weigals book The paganism in our Christianity to your innocent Jehovahs Witnesses?

The Watchtower identifies and quotes Trinitarians

but do they fully quote them in context?

When ever the Watchtower quotes a Trinitarian they have no problem identifying the individual as a Trinitarian. In other words the Watchtower is saying something like this look, this guy is a Catholic Jesuit Priest who in fact is a Trinitarian and check out what he said...

The Watchtower tries to make the Trinitarian look bad. They do this by misquoting the individual. They remove words, or take certain parts of the statement and combines them to give a different view or thought of what the individual intended to say. Hey, isnt that the number one rule of the Watchtower? Not to misquote individuals by partially quoting them? Thats a no no. The Watchtower shouldnt do this.

You can rest for sure, if the individual who is being quoted by the Watchtower is identified as a Trinitarian, 100% of time they are misquoted. Guarantee.

Anyway, the Watchtower misquotes Trinitarians but they accurately quote liberal bible trashers. I just dont get it. The Watchtower only applies their rule to a selected few. Shouldnt the rule apply to all?

Lets take a look at a Trinitarian that was quoted by the Watchtower in their famous brochure Should you Believe in The Trinity. The Watchtower writes on page 6:

Jesuit Fortman states: The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any Trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.

Ahh yes, the language Jehovahs Witness love to read especially either from a liberal bible trasher or even from a Catholic Jesuit priest. It doesnt matter who said it as long as the individual is a scholar right? This is the part where a JW will tell you, Look, Edmund Fortman was a Jesuit Catholic priest and a theologian and He rejects the Trinity.

The quotation the Watchtower uses is from Fortmans book The Triune God. Obviously written by a Catholic and a Trinitarian, certainly this book is considered apostate material and it shouldnt be in the homes of any Jehovahs Witnesses. We are gonna have to help the Jehovahs Witnesses here with the full quotation of what Fortman really said.

Lets see what the Watchtower failed to quote. Look Jehovahs Witnesses on what the Watchtower forgot to inform you. Please note, red is an important part of the quotation that the Watchtower failed to quote and blue is only what the Watchtower wanted to quote.

"As a Catholic and a firm believer in the Triune God my belief will inevitably affect to some extent my selection, interpretation and presentation of the documents and writings that manifest the historical development of this doctrine, but hopefully it will not substantially distort these. This is not an exhaustive and definitive study but it is meant to be more than a superficial survey, and it is hoped it may stimulate other fuller studies. The doctrine of the Triune God has had an amazing history. Convinced that this doctrine is a Christian doctrine that did and could originate only from divine revelation. I start the study from the authentic record of divine revelation that is found in the sacred writings of the Old and New Testaments. What does the Old Testament tell us of God? It tells us there is one God, a wonderful God of life and love and righteousness and power and glory and mystery, who is the creator and lord of the whole universe, who is intensely concerned with the tiny people of Israel. It tells us of His Word, Wisdom. Spirit, of the Messiah He will send, of a Son of Man and a Suffering Servant to come. But it tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit . If we take the New Testament writers together they tell us there is only one God, the creator and lord of the universe, who is the Father of Jesus. They call Jesus the Son of God, Messiah, Lord, Savior, Word, Wisdom. They assign Him the divine functions of creation, salvation, judgment. Sometimes they call Him God explicitly. They do not speak as fully and clearly of the Holy Spirit as they do of the Son, but at times they coordinate Him with the Father and the Son and put Him on a level with them as far as divinity and personality are concerned. They give us in their writings a triadic ground plan and triadic formulas. They do not speak in abstract terms of nature, substance, person, relation, circumincession, mission, but they present in their own ways the ideas that are behind these terms . They give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons . But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated. To study the gradual transition from an unformulated Biblical witness to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to a dogmatic formulation of a doctrine of the Triune God, we look first to the Eastern Church where most of this development took place. The Apostolic Fathers were witnesses to the Biblical data and the traditional faith rather than theologians, but they furnished useful insights into the lines along which the Church's unconscious theology was developing. Most of them indicated quite clearly a belief in the divinity of Christ, less clearly a belief in the distinct personality and divinity of the Holy Spirit. They gave solid evidence of a belief in three pre-existent 'beings,' but they furnished no trinitarian doctrine, no awareness of a trinitarian problem . The Apologists were, in a sense, the Church's first theologians: the first to attempt a sketch of trinitarian doctrine and an intellectually satisfying explanation of Christ's relation to God the Father. To set forth the truths handed down to them from the Apostles they used the terminology and philosophy that were then current, and in the process they christianized Hellenism to some extent. They manifested a belief in the unity of God and in some sort of 'trinity of divinity.' even though they had as yet no distinct conception of 'divine person' and 'divine nature.' (The Triune God, Edmund Fortman, introduction, p.xv)

Did anyone notice how the Watchtower deceptively takes partial quotations and combines two different statements giving a different thought of what the individual is actually saying?

Now comes the big questions...

Do you Jehovahs Witness accept Edmund Fortman as an authority after reading his full statement?
Is he really a reliable source to use?
Why does the Watchtower quote liberals and bible trashers accurately and when it comes to Trinitarians the Watchtower must misquotes them?

I can go on with this and give a list of all of the misquotations of the Watchtower but it will be 10,000 pages long.

The point is

THE WATCHTOWER BELIEVES IN THE TRINITY.

WHY ELSE WOULD THEY MISQUOTE TRINITARIANS

AND QUOTE LIBERAL BIBLE TRASHERS!

For a complete expose on the magazine "Should You Believe in the Trinity" by the Watchtower

visit: http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-jw-deceptions.htm

Edited by - youdontknowhim on 5 August 2002 8:58:40