DT

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Posts by DT

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  77

  My Avatar and yours

  by LockedChaos in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just curious .

  any symbolism or meaning to your avatar choice?

  mine is actually a gif .

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  DT

  I can't tell you what my avatar means. It's a secret.
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  26

  One Paper Towel

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the district conventions i went to always had signs in the restrooms asking people to only take one paper towel.

  i've heard other people mention this too.

  is this typical at conventions?

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  DT

  The district conventions I went to always had signs in the restrooms asking people to only take one paper towel. I've heard other people mention this too. Is this typical at conventions? I used to think that this was just a local decision.

  I thought that it was ironic that we were supposed to invite people to the district conventions even if they would have to travel a long distance and then greet them with a stingy message to use only one paper towel. It seemed very inhospitable and ungrateful.

  I have big hands, so this "counsel" caused me some moral uncertainty when I was a believer. I wanted to be faithful in what is least, so I would try to carefully absorb the moisture from my hands. The towel would become soaked and my hands would still be damp. I believe it is important to fully dry your hands when leaving the restroom to avoid spreading germs, especially in a place where people are often eager to shake hands, so sometimes I would disregard the counsel and use two paper towels. You just couldn't win. I even worried that my little ritual of carefully soaking the water from my hands could be viewed as mocking the guidance and worried that using two could stumble someone. I eventually concluded that it was more important to be hygienic and considerate of others than to follow an arbitrary rule. I think this was a small step in breaking the mind control of that cult.

  It's strange that they would be so careful in conserving paper in that situation when they are so wasteful of paper in other areas.
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  76

  Apply PHILOSOPHY to the argument of the TRINITY

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the trinity doctrine is a conceptual classification.

  it is not a thing itself.

  we don't bump into a trinity in everyday life.

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  DT

  Distinguish between the phenomena...............and................the description of it.

  Why?

  The way in which something is described (especially with language that is not mathematical) can contain metaphor because language is largely a PRACTICAL invention that deals with non-quantum events.

  This is a good point. However, I would point out that when it comes to quantum mechanics, all we have is the description. Even though the description may be mathematical, it isn't actually describing the phenomena. It's merely describing the probabilities of certain results when we choose to interact with whatever is going on. We can't say what is going on when we aren't looking. I don't take the trinity seriously, but it could be argued that its contradictions are a result of problems with a poor description rather than the phenomena itself.

  1. To exist, a thing must have identity. LAW OF IDENTITY. (It must be something specific)

  What is the identity of an elementary particle? I'm used to specific, real things having a location. However, the double slit experiment suggests that a single particle can go through both slits at the same time and interfere with itself to form an interference pattern. We can induce it to have a specific location by observing it. It's hard to say if we are observing something real and independent or if our consciousness is merely acting to invent an experience. I find it useful to assume that reality exits outside of experience, but there is no way to prove it. The evidence appears to at least allow for the possibility that the primacy of consciousness is true.

  2. A thing which exists must act according to its nature. LAW OF CAUSALITY. (a ball rolls down an incline, but, an egg wobbles and a cube slides, etc.)

  A thing which actually exists and has identity and acts according to its nature cannot, at the same time, violate its own existence, identity and nature. (Anti-concept)

  What is the nature of of an elementary particle? If you say it has a property like location or lack of location, then it appears to contradict that property at other times. It seems that its nature is to violate its own nature. Does that make it real or imaginary? I realise that our language seems inadequate for this, but then we should also be suspicious of any philosophy that is built on the same language.

  Observation CHANGES path or location by the violent collision of light waves or electrons.

  If reality exists outside of experience, then that is true. However, if reality is an invention of consciousness, then it may be more accurate to say that a particle only has path or location when we choose to make an observation. Even then this may be viewed as just an internal experience rather than something independent and external.

  I agree with your criticism of those who use primacy of consciousness as a view of knowledge. It is misleading and dangerous as it is usually employed. I would generally consider the primacy of existence to be a more useful philosophy. The problem is that I can't see any way of proving which is actually correct. The best that I can do is tentatively accept primacy of existence, at least in familiar situations, while realising that it has significant limitations if it is incorrect.

  Thank you for your thoughts. I hope I'm not derailing the discussion.
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  76

  Apply PHILOSOPHY to the argument of the TRINITY

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the trinity doctrine is a conceptual classification.

  it is not a thing itself.

  we don't bump into a trinity in everyday life.

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  DT

  Terry,

  This is a very interesting thread. I don't feel prepared to jump into the debate. I just have a few questions, in case you or anyone would like to address them.

  What about quantum mechanics? Certain fundamental properties of matter seem contradictory. For example, there is the wave particle duality of matter, where particles also behave like waves and vice versa. How would you apply your reasoning to the concepts of waves and particles? Perhaps you could even argue that this kind of contradiction is similar to what is described by the trinity. (Of course, the trinity isn't supported by experimental evidence like the wave particle duality of matter.)

  Quantum mechanics also seems to provide support for the idea that consciousness may have an effect on the material world. Could it be that the distinction between the two views that you are discussing break down at a fundamental level? I agree with much of your reasoning, but have to wonder about its limitations.
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  6

  Questions About Judicial Committees

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i disassociated so i was never involved in a judicial committee.

  i have a few questions.. 1. the accused is not allowed to take notes.

  however, i have heard that the elders sometimes take notes.

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  DT

  I disassociated so I was never involved in a judicial committee. I have a few questions.

  1. The accused is not allowed to take notes. However, I have heard that the elders sometimes take notes. Is this common? Is this required? I wonder if it would be useful for the accused to refuse to talk unless he was also allowed to take notes or unless the elders don't take notes. I know it probably wouldn't go anywhere, but it might make the elders think. At least it might be fun to see how they try to explain this double standard. It might also be fun to get them to explain what your appeal rights are. It could be pointed out that there has to be two or more witnesses to establish a matter. How can it be said that the accused has any meaningful appeal rights if he is denied anyway way of proving what went on during the first judicial committee?

  2. A recent court case in California established that judicial committees are not privileged and the elders can be required to testify about it in court. This raises a lot of interesting questions. What if the elders don't want to hear about certain details that could have legal consequences? What would happen if someone protests his innocence, but refuses to discuss any matter that could have legal implications? What if someone insists on having a lawyer present because of this? What if the accused insists that the proceedings be recorded to insure that the elders don't distort what is said in the judicial committee? Could someone sue for being disfellowshipped because he exercised his constitutional right to remain silent?

  3. My other questions are based on the baptism questions?

  (1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

  (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

  Baptism is often seen as a contract between the individual and the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses. This has been used as a legal defense to justify punishing a person because they have agreed to follow the rules of Jehovah's Witnesses and be subject to their disciplinary policies. Of course, those questions don't state that. It promises a "reward" for the payment of meeting certain conditions in the past. The payment involves repenting and dedicating yourself to a god. That dedication implies future actions in behalf of a third party, but this contract isn't specific about what that involves and doesn't grant the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses the privilege of interpreting what that involves. Also, the contract only requires that the dedication be made. It doesn't require that it be fulfilled. The "reward" is being identified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. There is no indication that this agreement can be nullified by either party. Jehovah's Witnesses actually teach that baptism is permanent. Yet, if you are disfellowshipped. They announce that you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Could this be considered a breach of contract?

  I look forward to your comments.
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  31

  DC 2008 Releases

  by JWFreak in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just to update you all on the this summers releases from a very good friend / source .

  totally confirmed .

  i just love to annoy the borg......and no i am no longer a witness .

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  DT

  I remember when they released the first young people ask book. They had all the young people sit together in a reserved section. I don't know if that was done everywhere or not. I doubt they would have the courage to try that again now that they are being informed by the Internet. There's too much potential for mischief or legal liability if some young people cause problems.
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  14

  Why can the governing body perform a cost benefit analysis when...

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the dubs aren't supposed to?.

  i remember being told that the book study was a necessary provision.

  it was expected that the dubs would make whatever sacrifices were needed to attend.

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  DT

  Booby,

  Welcome to JWD.

  The congregation book study fills a vital need in our spiritual progress.

  That's a great quote. If it fills a vital need, why should they care about gas prices?
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  14

  Why can the governing body perform a cost benefit analysis when...

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the dubs aren't supposed to?.

  i remember being told that the book study was a necessary provision.

  it was expected that the dubs would make whatever sacrifices were needed to attend.

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  DT

  DT R U A CPA?.............................oompa

  No, I just think my time and energy are valuable resources.

  No they didn't. They just put it with one of the others meeting for now.

  Which is how most will see it.

  Yes, they can claim that they didn't eliminate the meeting. They just rearranged things. The problem is that they changed the format, time, place and even the name. I think it is fair to see they got rid of the bookstudy. They just softened the blow by carving out a small chunk from the other meetings to do something that only vaguely resembles the bookstudy.
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  3

  Why do JW's have to use death as an excuse to preach?

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i came across this blog post about a pedestrian that was killed in an accident.

  it appears that she was a jehovah's witness.

  this wasn't mentioned in the article.

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  DT

  I came across this blog post about a pedestrian that was killed in an accident. It appears that she was a Jehovah's Witness. This wasn't mentioned in the article. It was mentioned in comment #18.

  http://www.streetsblog.org/2008/04/25/pedestrian-killed-by-truck-near-brooklyn-bridge/#comment-49204

  It's amazing how quickly that comment goes from recalling fond memories to preaching about the Kingdom that will soon solve all our problems (by killing 99.9% of humanity). To me, this kind of exhibition seems to be disrespectful of the deceased. I realise that many JW's would probably approve of their death being used that way. I guess it's a sad commentary on how the kind of mind control they experienced.

  What are your thoughts on how death is often handled by JW's?
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  14

  Why can the governing body perform a cost benefit analysis when...

  by DT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the dubs aren't supposed to?.

  i remember being told that the book study was a necessary provision.

  it was expected that the dubs would make whatever sacrifices were needed to attend.

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  2. 
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  DT

  the dubs aren't supposed to?

  I remember being told that the book study was a necessary provision. It was expected that the dubs would make whatever sacrifices were needed to attend. Sometimes the sacrifices were extreme. Some would quit their jobs or turn down employment or face dangers from weather, animals or warfare to attend. It was tempting to weigh the benefits of the bookstudy against the cost of attending, but this was strongly discouraged. I would sometimes miss a book study for a good reason other than being sick, but there was always guilt involved.

  Now the governing body eliminated the book study as a separate meeting. It comes down to a cost verses benefit analysis. Fuel prices are up and that time can be better used for family or personal study. It is hard to grasp why the governing body can make this kind of decision for everybody, but it is wrong for someone to make this kind of decision for himself or his family. Don't family heads have the Biblical responsibility to do what is best for their family?

  The governing body is setting a dangerous precedent. They have admitted that one of the meetings isn't necessary and it isn't worth any sacrifice to attend. They have pretty much admitted that for many dubs the cost exceeded the benefit of attending that "spiritual provision" How
  can they justify putting so much pressure on the dubs in the past to attend that meeting?

  There's always the unity defense, the idea that the dubs have to be united in what they do. This is a hard sell. It's one thing to claim that a dub has to do something difficult because it is in his best interest. It's a very different situation to admit that doing that may not be in his best interest, but should be done anyway to preserve unity. How many people are going to be willing to endanger their physical, mental, emotional, financial or spiritual well being for the abstract concept of unity? Once it is admitted that "spiritual provisions" can be subjected to a cost verses benefit analysis, it can be argued that everyone, especially family heads, have a responsibility to "count the cost" when deciding what spiritual
  activities are worth their efforts. So far, it sounds like most of the dubs are responding in a typically cult like way to this announcement. I wonder how many will start to think about the consequences of this after some time has passed. I think human nature will help many to see this as an opportunity to slack off in other areas. What do you think?