Posts by Focus

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

pettygrudger wrote:

I couldn't agree more with you Focus that it is our "foreign" and domestic policies that gets us into so much hot water. I don't think that many were interested enough in our "political" process or how we interact with the world in general to understand the choices that we have the responsibility to understand and make living in a "free" society. I believe a majority of Americans are getting a crash coure in foreign policy. Up until 9/11, i doubt very few could have cared less about it as long as they could drive their SUV's, go to their secure jobs & live the "high" life that fewer than 8% of this earth live.

Yes. The ignorance, extreme naivete as to the world and, well, extraordinarily poor education given their privileged position, of many of our brethren - as demonstrated with alarming regularity on this board and in a hundred thousand other places on the internet - has brought about a position where it seems that half the planet hates Americans.

But I would disagree that "enlightening" and knowledge is going to do the trick, at least in the near future.

I am afraid I think that you have got lost.

I am not talking about enlightening the "foreigners".

I am talking about enlightening Americans.

It is their hate language, and sometimes hateful conduct, that enables smart suicide-bombers to be more easily recruited.

Let me explain.

A suicide-bomber, or a team of them, needs to stay "on mission" right till the very end. The minute they begin to waver, they may change their mind. They are not "cowards" in the common sense of the word. They are overcoming their fear for what they, completely wrongly, think is their "best way" to make a better world.

The endless spew of ignorance, bigotry and hatred that emanates from a significant minority within the U.S. makes it much more likely they will not be deflected.

An example. Go to news:alt.revisionism . Over 95% of hate material quite evidently emanates from the U.S. Leaving aside France and Germany, who have specific laws banning certain types of hate speech, one would have expected the rest of the world to contribute 50%, not 5%. This expectation takes into account the very widespread use of English and the Internet in the U.S. The hatred of other groups, inside and outside the country, is very strong. WHY?

I'm not talking about educating "Arabs". I'm talking about educating "Americans".

On a final note, I'm not sure who was "painting" all Arabs with the same brush.

You are not sure?

Here. My highlighting.
Francois wrote on: Dec 19, 2002 19:48

EVERY commercial airliner highjacked in the last 20 years was highjacked by an Arab, a Muslim extremist. Make a note of that.
What does it take to convince you, Reborn? A well-placed 2 X 4 against the skull? Hint: These people are not our friends. Carefully read Yeru's post. All the information you need is there and I don't like being redundant, especially when you're not being thoughtful.
Try again.

In the context of the thread, it is obvious the sane reader is going to conclude that one, whatever one's intentions, is referring to "Arabs/Muslims" - rather than just the terrorists among them, as it is utterly redundant to say that "Terrorists who attack America are not friends of America." Just as likely that Jesus stressed he was speaking "today" at Luke 23:43.

//Snipped the rest, as I agree that the article he quoted does not actually prove what many saw as being Jason's contention. By the time I saw the thread, others had already taken Jason up on this, so I did not. I am addressing the quality of text in the reactions of others, and how such ill-thought and inflammatory material simply assists terrorist-recruiters.//

"History doomed to repeat itself..." is correct, until the cycle is broken. My way breaks the cycle. Grievously wronging innocent people perpetuates the cycle. Simple, if one puts one's mind to it.

--
Focus
(Passive nothing - ACTIVE GRAY Class)

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

Rhonda wrote:

Rhonda (of the torn between our rights & our safety class)

Please, don't be torn, brave one. When I look at your thumbnail GIF, I keep expecting...

Now, "my" way reduces, to the recruiters of suicide-attackers, their flow of oxygen.

If one may be seen to "hate" them, one can be sure they will hate one back.
Even if one is "right".

The suicide-killer is increasingly sophisticated. He may be young and naive, but in order to accomplish what is required of him, he needs to be reasonably intelligent. He may have to fly planes. Heaven help us, he may have to learn to tweak and set off medium-sized nuclear devices (not just suitcase nukes). Probably more than just flicking a switch as in the 007 movies.

Showing that "our" side is not filled with racist, violent, unfair, ignorant-of-history and discriminatory bigots makes it harder, in this internet age, for the recruiter on the other side to demonstrate that "we" are "The Great Satan" (or whatever) to his necessarily non-stupid target audience.

It is no guarantee, and it is NOT a replacement (just a supplement) for thorough but JUST defensive* measures, but it is a hell of a lot better than giving the other side the moral high ground. You can be very sure that there are advocates on the other side (and on this one) every bit as persuasive as I, and then some, and who will have far fewer qualms than I about sticking to the truth (let alone the Whole truth). It is possible to lie by omission.

Thinking that the recruiters on the other side are dumb illiterate {racial slur deleted prior to insertion} is .... dumb. Very, very, very dumb.

They are as dumb as I am.

These recruiters "PROVE" how evil America and its allies are, as well or better than the WTS proves that it has "the truth" to JWs. Not all JWs are willing to die specifically for their beliefs (thank heavens) - see the stats re changing of minds re transfusions, and even of Bible Students who decided that "Heil"ing Hitler was better than being sent to a concentration camp.

How do I know? The September 11 recruiters scored 20/20 (or 19/20, just possibly).

I want to make THEIR jobs as HARD AS POSSIBLE.

They are the REAL ENEMY. They brainwash others into murdering.

Catching them is not easy. Where's bin Laden, eh?

So let's make their work as hard as possible. Their main work. Propaganda and recruiting. And not simply play into their hands with immature and semi-racist fantasies....

Make it harder to recruit people who are willing to die (the ultimate sacrifice: only a tiny minority of intelligent people will EVER opt for this) in order to murder others. I sincerely believe "my" way (of course not "mine", but I am the one specifically advocating it HERE) is the best one to ensure this happens and there is a world left for our descendants. Gradually, the spread of knowledge will lessen the dangers to all. And hopefully, a reduction in injustice will occur.

Of the three "I"s I listed in my last post, "Ignorance" is the biggest factor. But at present, even the knowledgeable have plenty of reason to point their finger at the U.S. Heard of pollution, ecology, the global environment?

Food for thought. Don't blame others for hating us for what our "democratically" elected government and accountable national and international institutions perpetrate in our name.

"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battle field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate - we cannot consecrate - we cannot hallow - this ground. The brave men living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here, but it will never forget what they did here. It is for this the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us - that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion - that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain - that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom - and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

It is "of", "by" and "for" us, right?

Must have been someone like Focus who was dumb enough to say that, right?

The international actions, much of it covert, of recent governments of the United States are a betrayal to the dead of Gettysburg, an affront to human rights and dignity, a disgrace, and plain folly - and a surefire way of ensuring that the recruiters of suicide-bombers will not run short of sufficiently intelligent recruits.

Ignorance on the part of the opposers, sure; but also some knowledgeable ones opposed, who can see immense ignorance within America: the world's first major power to whose people it came as a genuine shock that the despicable actions of the governments that are ostensibly of/by/for them has caused them to be so hated in so many places (let alone accurate perceptions as to the causes of such hatred: "jealousy" is but a minor factor)

Tragic. What wasted opportunities for a better world.

--
Focus
(Practical Survival Skills Class)

* Bombing innocent people, in this modern day when pinpoint attacks are possible, and where satellites have resolutions down to the inch, and so on, is NOT - in general - a "defensive measure". Mistakes will happen. But when five or ten happen in a short period they can no longer be termed "mistakes" and will surely serve to recruit more hate-fuelled enemies.

Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 23:6:32

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

LDH: Yes, you do understand.

Here in this very thread we see manifested precisely the attitudes that make recruiting terrorists - say, ones who happen to be Anti-American, easier.

1. One or more FALSE assertions are made defaming whole racial/religious groups.
2. Based on the assertions seen to be false, calls for extreme measures are made against such groups: these are to be vindicated by the said assertion(s).

Think I am a high-falutin' moralist?

Nope.

I am practical, unlike the Uzi-bearers.

Let us just pretend that I, Focus, was a recruiter for Anti-American terrorists. I assure you that I am not.
Now, comments like those spouted by Francois (he is but an example; he is far from alone) would be MY BEST ALLIES. I'll show you why.
Focus (enters room filled with naive Muslim young men): Read what the Americans say about you.
/They read/
Focus: Now, see the LIE(S) they tell about us! (shows them, carefully using irrefutable American-only sources, that the assertions made about say Arabs/Muslim hijackers is FALSE; plenty more to show them, relating to nefarious acts committed abroad by the CIA etc.)
Focus: Now, after their propaganda of LIES, see what insulting things they write! (reads from Francois): "These people are not our friends." (then recites various unfair actions taken against Muslim groups)
Young men: (scream) JIHAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!

Get the picture, thickos? Once you get to the stage of using language like "these people" as applied to whole racial/religious groups, you are as bad as they are. And their leaders WILL USE YOUR OWN WORDS TO RECRUIT MORE TERRORISTS.

And leaving aside the moral aspects: you can take as many measures as you want, but if there are enough young men who hate you enough to kill your people irrespective of whether they kill themselves too, kill your people they will.

The key is not "an eye for an eye". That leads to a world filled with blind people.

The key is determining the cause of terrorism, and fixing it as best as possible.

TERRORISM is bred by INJUSTICE, IGNORANCE and INTOLERANCE. We've seen all of those three manifested right here. So why vilify them for what one is guiulty of oneself, eh?

"They started it" is both morally irrelevant and factually incorrect.

roybatty said:

Here in Chicago on the local news they did a special on local Islamic schools and the hate they preach

Reprehensible indeed.

And here on jw.com Focus does a special on the hate preached, often unintentionally (but the result is the same), in threads.
Which preaching is just as reprehensible.

The identifying characteristic of a bigot or someone enmeshed in a cult is an inability to see analogies. I am sure you can see the analogy, roybatty.

Now, my suggestions lead to a world where our children's children have more of a chance.

The other fantasizing will as sure as eggs is eggs lead to a world where recruiting new terrorists gets easier and easier. With consequences that are obvious. Nukes in major cities.

It is the ones who spout "These people are not our friends." who - without realizing it, I know - enable and make easier the task of recruiting suicide bombers and the like.

T H I N K .

Put your violent fantasies aside. They don't impress. They simply RECRUIT.

Solve the problem. Don't attack the symptoms: in this case, that will only exacerbate the problem.

Defend carefully against terrorism for sure, but in a MANIFESTLY non-discriminatory way.

No bleeding heart here. But someone hardened to dealing with practicalities. The violence-mongers are the ones who themselves are bleeding idealists, for their ideals way will just lead to a mass grave, where Muslims and Christians and so on will rot together.

And Dubya making an idiotic speech that refers to a "crusade" - what do you think of that? Deliberate provocation by the speech-writer(s)? Sheeeeesh.

Sorry I used your words as an example, Francois. I could have chosen those of many others from this thread.

--
Focus
(Wants to make it much harder, not much easier, to persuade people to kill others... Class)

Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 22:13:37

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

Francois stumbled:

EVERY commercial airliner highjacked in the last 20 years was highjacked by an Arab, a Muslim extremist. Make a note of that.

Francois, it took me 20 seconds to prove you wrong (see news article below), as:
1. An Indian Airlines Airbus A-300 manifestly is a "commercial airliner".
2. An Indian Hindu, extremist or otherwise, manifestly does not fall within the remit of your "an Arab, a Muslim extremist."
3. The incident occurred 9 years ago, which is manifestly "in the last 20 years".

And I am sure there have been various other non-Muslim plane hijackers in the period. By overstating your case, you leave yourself wide open to charges both of stupidity and bigotry. I don't believe you are stupid or bigoted. I just believe you are rash and do not think things through. I'm sure you haven't forgotten our last encounter.

When writing about these charged topics, you should be more careful with with your assertions.

"an Arab, a Muslim" is also confused. I suggest you mean "an Arab or a Muslim". While it is true that most Arabs are Muslims, few Muslims are Arabs. Arabs are an ethnic group: a race or races. A Muslim is the member of a religion. Be careful with your broad brush and your racial/religious defamation.

What does it take to convince you, Reborn? A well-placed 2 X 4 against the skull? Hint: These people are not our friends. Carefully read

Why this quick slip into fantasies of physical violence, Francois?

Do you see unpleasant enemies and potential enemies all around you?

You may be right. If so, ask yourself "why is it so". And if they concern you, why do things that will make it likely that their numbers will increase?

I suggest that YOU carefully read first.

Here's "one" for you, in turn:
Name some non-Christian "CRUSADERS" (within the classic sense of the word).

This "MUSLIM-BASHING" is just as IDIOTIC as the previous "JEW-BASHING". Learn some history, and learn how many people, in the thrall of a religion hundreds of years younger than Christianity, behave much as many "Christians" did hundreds of years ago.

They're all as bad as each other.

And I have oodles of data to support my contentions.

Those wishing to make fools of themselves, pray proceed. Pussy just might play.

Your sort of inflammatory rhetoric, coupled with "FACT" that I have just proven is anything BUT factual, simply makes YOU the sort of person whose writings make recruiting terrorists so much easier.

Think about it. I am not being hostile. Correcting foolish and misguided assertions is an act of kindness and not one of hostility. I view PROPAGANDA such as you (and others) spill as being the fodder for terrorists. If you want to encourage more terrorism, proceed with your folly. Hate breeds hate. Intolerance breeds intolerance. Not too hard to understand, even without "your" 4x2.

Next time, THINK first. THEN research. THEN think again. THEN - just perhaps - post. Thanks for playing.

--
Focus
(Anti-Idiocy Class)

PS: By the way, I wouldn't be too hasty to come up with the lame excuse "I meant an AMERICAN airline's plane / a hijacking involving American victims". There are quite a number of big pitfalls to be encountered along that route of argumentation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Google Groups

TRUCK DRIVER HIJACKS A JETLINER
By DEEPAK SHARMA
Associated Press Writer March 27, 1993
AMRITSAR, India (AP) -- A truck driver protesting sectarian violence
commandeered a jetliner Saturday in an eight-hour saga that ended with
dozens of passengers rushing for the hijacker's autograph after he
surrendered.
"It was like he was some kind of a hero," said Judy Silver of Short
Hills, N.J., and a student at Washington University in St. Louis. "He bowed
to the people while they were clapping.
"Some people were plain disgusted by that behavior and we were just
confused," she said.
In a rambling statement over the aircraft's radio, he said he seized the
Airbus A300 to protest political corruption and Hindu-Muslim violence that
has killed about 2,000 Indians since December. The hijacker was wearing a
shirt scrawled with cartoons of political leaders and a slogan calling
for communal harmony when he ordered the pilot to divert the plane to Pakistan
and then Bangladesh.
He pretended he had strapped explosives to his body, but was unarmed.
The 192 passengers and 13 crew were released unharmed eight hours after the
man, identified as 37-year-old Hari Singh, a Hindu, surrendered. There were
no injuries.
When Singh announced his decision to give himself up, many passengers
rushed to get his autograph, said Erica Binger, a student at Pepperdine
University in Malibu, Calif., and native of Paulson, Mont.
Binger and Silver were among six Americans on the plane, which was
flying from New Delhi to the southern cities of Hyderabad and Madras.
Singh first told the pilot to fly to Lahore, Pakistan, but Pakistani
authorities refused to let it land and blocked the runway with buses.
The hijacker then ordered the pilot to fly to Bangladesh capital, Dhaka,
but was persuaded to let the jetliner land in the northwestern city of
Amritsar to refuel.
The aircraft was parked in a corner of the airstrip and was ringed by
commandos who had sealed the airport.
Government officials negotiated with the hijacker for hours. When he
surrendered, Singh followed the plane's captain down a staircase and had
begun to make a statement to journalists when police whisked him away.
"I have not hijacked this plane for bloodshed, but I want to change the
thinking of the people because my aim is only love, peace and to maintain
communal harmony in India," he said before police removed him.
Passengers said the hijacker was calm and shook hands with many of them.
"We are greatly relieved it is over even though there didn't appear to
be any danger, " said Rowan Harty, an aerospace engineer from Blackpool,
England. Jennifer McArthur, a 20-year-old native of Midway City, Calif.,
said she broke down when she learned of the hijacking.
"I am not even allowed to drink and I have already been hijacked," said
Jennifer McArthur, a sophomore at the University of Southern California in
Los Angeles.
In his statement, Singh blamed the nation's largest opposition group,
the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, for the destruction of a
Muslim shrine that set off nationwide riots.
The hijacking occurred as the governing Congress Party began a weekend
meeting where Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao faced strong criticism from
party dissidents. Many have said he has poorly handled the communal
violence.
The hijacking, the 10th of an Indian Airlines jetliner since 1971, also
comes as tourism is falling dramatically because of widespread violence.

Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 21:24:53

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

Heathen wrote:

I say round em up and send them all back ///grin///

1. Who? Taking 500 or 5,000 years ago as being a suitably distant starting point, you get the same set of people to round up: EVERYONE except the Native American peoples. So I guess it must be the Native Americans who carry out the (final) rounding-up. Unfortunately, there are not too many of them, Genocide having been an Unwritten Principle upon which the Great Land was founded. Right?
2. Send back to where?
3. And bearing precisely what?

I see little difference in the rights between sundry sets of immigrants and their descendants. By all accounts, "man" (now here's another thing) wasn't there when the Native Americans came in via the North, so they get finders' rights. It follows that all others descended from either those who:
(a) forced themselves in; or
(b) were let in by those who are the descendants of those who forced themselves in
are interlopers, worthy of expulsion.

For the dull-witted: I am not actually advocating this. I am advocating TOLERANCE.

Those "Christians" who attack large sections of the followers of Islam for advocating, or not sufficiently opposing, intolerance within their own community are displaying an appalling ignorance about the history of "Christianity" over the last couple of millennia, pretty much right up to the present day in historical terms. The Crusades and the Inquisition are but the popularly known examples of recent "Christian" love: there are many more. And the Holocaust was perpetrated by an "advanced" "Christian" nation and its (almost exclusively) "Christian" stooges.

Each of these big religions is as bad as the others. For either extianity or slamology to claim moral superiority over the other is idiocy. When extians do so, their demonstrable hypocrisy makes it easier for slamologic terrorist-recruiters to do their job.

TOLERANCE, and love of one's fellow man.

Those who spout bigotry take note.

--
Focus
(Primo Levi Class)

Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 16:59:8

67

History doomed to repeat itself...

by Reborn2002 in

jw
friends

another fine example of the violation of civil liberties perpetrated by the bush administration / ashcroft-led justice department under the guise of fighting "terror.

is this not "terror" in itself?

at what point is it acceptable for the american people to allow such actions to be committed against fellow american citizens simply because these people are of arab descent?

Focus

If it were so bad, why is this is the number one destination for
so many people from different countries?

Doh! Because they can make more MONEY .... jee**z!
And a good number will end up bad-mouthing it too, some of them for good reason.

Not that the founding fathers are too be viewed uncritically either. They are of the class that cruelly, wantonly and unnecessarily destroyed the North American Native American and perpetuated the profound evils of Slavery for a hundred further years, to long after more enlightened nations across the ocean had outlawed it. How does Slavery reconcile with a Constitution and Bill of Rights? Only by defining the "Negro" as being other than Human.

Nations, schmations... poof.

PRINCIPLES instead.

Principles that permit, enable and encourage Good people to do Good.

(The wicked will always do wickedly, whether permitted/helped or not).

--
Focus
(Nazi-hating L'internationale Class)

44

Where do I go for support???

by scaredyetresolved in

jw
friends

i would love some support since i am scared and confused, but i don't know where to turn.

my husband and i are both having our eyes opened wide after years of doubts.

we have finally read the "apostate literature" over the past few weeks and have checked and rechecked their sources.

Focus

What everyone else above said (with Farkel's taken twice), plus:

scaredyetresolved wrote:

I am really aching inside for our kids

Of course. Now brace yourself. And that is exactly why getting away from a Mind Control Cult founded on and crafted on and run via a set of LIES, DECEPTION and WEASEL-WORDING must be done as soon as practicable.

Before it damages the kids (further?).

Would you think twice of removing your kids from a source of disease? The spreading of Watchtowerinsanity has all the hallmarks of a contagion.

That is not to say most JWs are bad. They are not. But they are vectors for a particularly disgusting form of illness that destroys families better than does any other "big-numbers" cult/creed.

Here is an insight. 95%+ OF THE PURPOSE OF THE SHUNNING DOCTRINE IS TO PREVENT WHISTLE-BLOWING. Who else practises shunning, eh? And what does that tell you? Keeping the congo clean, rubbish! Keep truth out, that is it instead.

And beware allowing any unsupervised contact between your kids and the disease-carriers (which is not to say be unkind to the disease-carriers: you were of this Class until recently, right?) unless you want poison to be delivered. Remember, they will think they are saving your kids, not screwing them up.

The Watchtower fulfils the scriptural criteria/definitions, however much it shamelessly denies this, of:
1. An Anti-Christ.
2. The Disgusting Thing.
3. A False Prophet.
4. The Great Whore of Babylon.
5. A Liar in God's Name who speaks with Arrogance and Extreme Presumptuousness.

The Watchtower makes God into a Lying Whore for whom they Pimp.

The Watchtower Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses Cult is an embodiment of SPIRITUAL PORNOGRAPHY, a WOLFISH TRICK, a MOST FILTHY LIE, a CHEAT, a SCAM, a DISGUSTING ABOMINATION, a BLASPHEMOUS INSULT, a WICKED FRAUD, a DISGRACE, a SCANDAL, a PEDOPHILE PARADISE - and a DAMNED OUTRAGE from start to finish.

Here, find a little of my work:
http://www.freeminds.org/history/part1.htm
Read it and laugh at what utter fools the Gibbering Baboons of Crooklyn have made of you with their make-believe terror "Gawd" and their endless lies and prevarication.

"LAUGHTER IS HEALING, AND SELF-SUPPORTS. IT IS THE BEST MEDICINE."

It is FULLY IN ACCORDANCE with the teachings of the WATCHTOWER Bible &
Tract Society (WTBTS) for every member of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES to Carefully
Study the LIST mentioned above, which comprises truly fine scriptural food
from its own publications. Remember the WTBTS told you to confirm whether
what was taught by the WTBTS was in harmony with the Bible - and if not,
not to circulate it {WT Mar 1 1894 repr p1629}, to confirm WT teachings
against the Bible {WT May 1 1934 p131}, to invite critical examination of
your faith {WT Aug 15 1950 p263}, that, far from being wrong, it is your
duty to examine religion to see if it is true or false {WT Nov 15 1963
p688}, that you should actively examine your own religion {The Truth That
Leads To Eternal Life 1968 p13, a WTBTS publication}, that you should check
and examine BOTH sides of a matter {Awake! Oct 22 1973 p6}, that your
religion was in no way afraid of being exposed to scrutiny {WT Aug 1 1978
p12}, that you should to be willing to submit everything to scrutiny
{Awake! Aug 22 1984 p22/28}, that you should not have a closed mind {WT Nov
22 1984 p3-4}, that you should actively refer to the older publications {WT
Jun 15 1985 p12}, that all people are encouraged to examine other religions
and with an open mind {WT Apr 1 1991 p17} and that you are encouraged to
exhibit freedom of thought {Awake! Jun 8 1994 p21}. So, please follow this
advice of the WTBTS, and study that LIST very carefully. "You will know the
Truth and the Truth will set you free."(John 8:32). Fine advice indeed!

THE LIST IS PRODUCED IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO A RECENT REQUEST BY THE WTBTS in
{WT Dec 1 1990 p19}, where it quotes {WT Dec 15 1914 p377-8}: "If any one
knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything
better, we hope you will tell us." Kindly, Prominent Bethelite has duly
obliged. Having read it, if you find the WTBTS has ever told falsehoods,
follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Dec 1 1991 p7} "A religion
that teaches lies cannot be true."; if you find the WTBTS has even made one
false prophecy, follow the WTBTS advice clearly given in {WT Feb 1 1992 p3}
"Beware of False Prophets!" - and cut yourself off from these Foul Cheats.

--
Focus
(Anti-LIARS Class)

Edited by - Focus on 19 December 2002 14:14:7

15

IS THIS A HEALING PLACE?

by hamptonite21 in

jw
friends

many come to this board with wounds from the past in the jdub dom.

sometimes this place just pours salt in these wounds, attacking peoples character and support groups that people seek refuge.

(ie silent lambs) im sure in disgust many have vacated the board.

Focus

I agree with ALL the responses you have had so far, hamptonite21 (and just checked the thread to make sure teejay hasn't snuck in just ahead of me!)

You wrote in this thread:

IS THIS A HEALING PLACE?
Im sure in disgust many have vacated the board. Why is this? I believe in freedom of speech, but [..] I think the attitude of many on the board has changed since I started posting here, At first it was warmer, now its very attacking [..] I introduced a friend to the board, they observed, I thought it might help them to get advice and comfort, since they are trying to do the fade. Their response was, "all they do is argue"

Hampt, the three months in which you have posted have not been that representative. The period has included the very sad RF/SL (+now RevM etc.) multi-stage polydrama, which pretty well covered two months and to which you have made an oblique reference. The matter may well have nearly fully unravelled itself now (I hope). Also, I see from your own words in Asking nicely just doesn't seem to work here!:

I SMELL IGNORANT BIGOT.

you were also ambushed by the ludicrous fiasco which went on for almost the whole of your second month, and you didn't like the look of it. Join the club. Well, the sorry bunch of intellectual-dwarves responsible don't seem to be active here any more (but wait! have a cookie!)

Don't give up on jw.com, not that I think you will. It is a lot better than most.

Check out my post in the Theocatic Pussies Banned Class thread, please. And stay and have fun, learn, share... "give a good witness" to the Lurker Class. Not all XJWs become nutters.

--
Focus
(Love, not none of this durn "Agape" and "Philia" Crap! Class)

43

Educate me on JW dating!

by Delicious_Daniel in

i really like this girl who ive been told is a jw.

im not sure about jw's and their beleifs of dating so i have a few questions.. 1) are jw's allowed to date outside their religion?.

2) what are jw's beleifs on pre-marital sex?.

Focus

My dear Daniel,

Two years ago, there ran through this place one called Danielle, who manifested true fruitage of the JW spirit. Danielle's visit here was brief, lasting no more than a day, but a 'Search' shows me that Danielle is remembered still.

Alas, so traumatic were the loving (TM WTS) truths keen young Danielle brought to the worldly, unbelieving ones, members of the dogfood and birdseed Class (that includes you, son, whatever you may think) that the (then less experienced) S.Magus Class allegedly saw fit to allegedly excise them allegedly COMPLETELY from this forum, a distinction conferred on very, very, very few posters. This despite the fact that they contained no rude images, words or insults, and just spoke the true langwitch of God's only footstep followers. How piquant!

In the improbable event that you are what you say you are, and you think I am nuts, I assure you that you will soon be dealing with far, far, far worse insanity (not to mention trauma, hurt, rejection, confusion etc.) on a close basis for a long period if you pursue this interest successfully. And the choice may come down to signing up to something you know is a load of bull, and losing the one you have fallen in love with.

This is no joking matter. Over 50% of all contested child-custody cases in the U.S., where religion is at all an issue, involves one parent who is a JW. If there was no correlation, and allowing for the dynamics of JW-JW/JW-nonJW relationships (100 lines snipped here), you could expect this to be at about the 0.1% level AT MOST. That is 500 times, son. Think about what causes this.....

To your other question. I see no contradiction in one of God's people accepting a birthday present. You are scheduled for imminent slaughter (watch no use to you) unless you sign up, in which case she'll give it back to you in the New World while raiding all those swanky watch shops with no cops to stop her. Or if you die first not having heard the message, this is a way of your inheriting your own estate in the New World! Actually, the Watchtower try this line regularly in their attempts to solicit donations (at least once, right next to their attempts to get you killed by refusing transfusions - profiting from their heinous spiritual crime).

If you prefer the short version, Daniel: RUN!

If only Danielle's material was here, a link to the userposts would serve as sufficient warning.... hint to the Resurrection Class.

--
Focus
('Running ahead of Jehovah... as fast as I possibly can' Filthy Depraved Apostate Class)

9

Excuses of God

by hippikon in

jw
friends

please help me compile a list of the excuses apologists use to defend gods inactivity.. .

hes giving you time to repent.. .

hes allowing time to prove a point.. .

Focus

you Lot don't deserve me!

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." - Almighty God of the Bible (at Gen. 6:7)

Question: How come I'm so much better than the cruel Old Testament Monstrosity, but fall so short of what I like to think are the logical fruits (not the actual ones, which are sour indeed) of what are deemed to be the teachings of someone called Yeshu? Strange book, the Bible. Meant for those who like to put clothes on Emperors.

--
Focus
(Who Owns Up To His Mistakes, Rather Than Sweeping Them Under The Carpet Class)