Posts by FusionTheism

8

Holy Spirit question

by TweetieBird in

does the new world translation ever reference the holy spirit as a "him"?

if not, does it refer to it as an "it"?.

thanks!.

FusionTheism

The NWT refers to the Holy Spirit as "him" only in John chapter 16, the rest of the Bible as "it."

There is some debate among scholars over this and the proper way of translating into English.

23

Why BOGUS PREDICTIONS and CHANGEABLE TEACHINGS only strengthen JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

by TerryWalstrom in

today's jw knows less about the history of the watchtower religion than ever before.. there is no need to know.

only the present moment of new light has meaning.. there are too many enemies surrounding jw's to risk learning something faith-weakening.. such as facts.

the watchtower religion (jehovah's witnesses) has been 'getting away with it' since 1874.. setting dates built on false chronology, pyramidology, slanted quotations about world events, and misrepresenting their own authority, (channel of jehovah) is a profitable enterprise for the watchtower org.. how do we know they 'get away with it'?.

FusionTheism

Thank you for your post.

The only thing I would add to it, is that the current GB ("Governing Body 2.0") definitely is more open and honest and transparent in the new publications about their past errors, even though, as you point out, they don't really have to be.

For example, there was no urgent need for them to talk about all their past errors and mistakes with the Types/Antitypes and Parables, but they made a huge deal about it, and about going through and correcting those views.

They also made a big point at the 2014 Annual Meeting Talk about how bad Russell's Pyramidology was. There was really no urgent need to do that, but they brought it up anyway.

Shunning & Disfellowshipped -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

a simplified, streamlined, scriptural, balanced view of shunning and disfellowshipping:.

jesus said to treat people who unrepentantly harm you and don't apologize, as people of the nations or as tax collectors.. jesus set the example by still being kind and friendly to tax collectors and gentiles, even though he may not have had them as his closest friends.

jesus also made a big point of being kind and eating with prostitutes and many other sinners.. in this case, it would be the individual christian choosing not to closely associate with people who intentionally callously harm them, which is wise.

FusionTheism

A simplified, streamlined, Scriptural, balanced view of Shunning and Disfellowshipping:

Jesus said to treat people who unrepentantly harm you and don't apologize, as people of the nations or as tax collectors.

Jesus set the example by still being kind and friendly to tax collectors and Gentiles, even though He may not have had them as His closest friends. Jesus also made a big point of being kind and eating with prostitutes and many other sinners.

In this case, it would be the individual Christian choosing not to closely associate with people who intentionally callously harm them, which is wise. This is not a mandatory shunning enforced by the Congregation.

In Christ's parable of the Prodigal Son, He shows the attitude we should have toward those who leave the Congregation and say they don't want to have anything to do with it anymore. We should respect their choice, and be ready to welcome them wholeheartedly when, or if, they return.

Jesus' other parable of the Lost Sheep shows how we should act toward those who may have been stumbled or have doubts: We should lovingly seek them out to help them return.

The Apostle Paul said people in the Congregation who flagrantly commit sexual sins such as incest, should be excommunicated. The Congregation should not allow them any privileges or have close friendship with them, or make it look like they approve of the sins.

In addition, Paul also taught that people who openly contradicted the Congregation leaders, stirring up divisions, and causing doubts, should be given two warnings, then they should be marked by the Congregation, but they should still be viewed as brothers and sisters.

The Apostle John said that a person who contradicts the main Good News about Jesus and what He did, should be totally shunned, to the point of not saying a greeting to him or showing support for him.

I would say that none of these commands in the New Testament would support cutting off family relationships, except perhaps John's command about not speaking to those who are anti-christ.

109

Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

by greenhornet in

the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

FusionTheism

Do we blame the Jewish victims in the Holocaust for practicing their faith or for speaking out against Hitler?

Most people usually consider them to be brave heroes.

I think anti-Watchtower bias and bitterness is showing through on some of these comments.

109

Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

by greenhornet in

the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

FusionTheism

I actually have no problem at all with Rutherford and Witnesses writing letters condemning Adolf Hitler and speaking truth to power, especially evil power.

We should all stand up and condemn evil wherever we find it.

To me, it looks like a case of blaming and shaming the victims (JWs) instead of the evil monster (Hitler) who committing the atrocities.

7

The Other Sheep and the Little Flock -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

if you look at the context of the scriptures, you'll see that the "little flock" jesus was going to give the kingdom to (luke 12:32) are the leaders in the congregations, the ones who faithfully serve his sheep, beginning with the apostles and original jewish believers.. in addition, the "other sheep" who would be brought into the congregation later, given the context in the gospel of john, would be the gentile (non-jewish) christians.

(see john 12:20-32).

nothing in these scriptures says anything about an earthly hope for the other sheep and a heavenly hope for the little flock.. that is going beyond what is written..

FusionTheism

Island Man,

That's definitely a valid possible interpretation. It could be that way, since in another passage, Jesus tells the Apostles they will be twelve kings on thrones and in Revelation it portrays the 12 Apostles and 12 Tribe-Leaders as the 24 Elder-Kings.

20

help catagorize my wife: I truely believe she suffers from cognitive dissonance and other things this stupid cult causes.

by goingthruthemotions in

i find it hard sometimes to get a good idea has to how to communicate with my wife when it come to this stupid cult.. she is born in and stopped attending for many years and got baptized later in life.

i truely believe she suffers from cognitive dissonance and other things this stupid cult causes.. here is a breakdown of what i gather to be where she is mentally.. * she calls the borg her faith.

here are actions that she does that go against her thoughts:.

FusionTheism

I don't like the idea of "categorizing" your wife or calling her "mentally lacking," or "stupid."

How is that attitude or demeaning treatment any better than the actions you don't like in the Society?

Basically, if your wife has supported and respected your freedom to do the things you love, then why wouldn't you support your wife?

7

The Other Sheep and the Little Flock -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

if you look at the context of the scriptures, you'll see that the "little flock" jesus was going to give the kingdom to (luke 12:32) are the leaders in the congregations, the ones who faithfully serve his sheep, beginning with the apostles and original jewish believers.. in addition, the "other sheep" who would be brought into the congregation later, given the context in the gospel of john, would be the gentile (non-jewish) christians.

(see john 12:20-32).

nothing in these scriptures says anything about an earthly hope for the other sheep and a heavenly hope for the little flock.. that is going beyond what is written..

FusionTheism

If you look at the context of the Scriptures, you'll see that the "little flock" Jesus was going to give the Kingdom to (Luke 12:32) are the leaders in the Congregations, the ones who faithfully serve his sheep, beginning with the Apostles and original Jewish believers.

In addition, the "other sheep" who would be brought into the Congregation later, given the context in the Gospel of John, would be the Gentile (non-Jewish) Christians. (See John 12:20-32)

Nothing in these Scriptures says anything about an earthly hope for the other sheep and a heavenly hope for the little flock.

That is going beyond what is written.

2

The Heavenly Hope -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

the bible says there is just "one hope" for christians (ephesians 4:4).. revelation says god will come down and bring heaven down to earth.

(revelation 21:2-3).

the old testament focuses more on the hope of the earth being a paradise and the new testament focuses more on going to heaven.. but as we can see revelation and ephesians, there is only "one hope," and we will get to experience both the paradise earth and heaven.. i see no reason in the bible why we would need to take the number 144,000 literally in revelation, where almost all the other numbers mentioned are symbolic..

FusionTheism

The Bible says there is just "one hope" for Christians (Ephesians 4:4).

Revelation says God will come down and bring Heaven down to Earth. (Revelation 21:2-3)

The Old Testament focuses more on the hope of the earth being a paradise and the New Testament focuses more on going to Heaven.

But as we can see Revelation and Ephesians, there is only "one hope," and we will get to experience both the paradise earth and heaven.

I see no reason in the Bible why we would need to take the number 144,000 literally in Revelation, where almost all the other numbers mentioned are symbolic.

1

Simplified Suggestion -- The Signs of the Last Days

by FusionTheism in

my simplified suggestion for the signs of the last days (matthew 24, mark 13, luke 21):.

there is nothing i can see in the bible that says we should find a greater antitypical fulfillment of the great tree prophecy of daniel, therefore, if that's the case, there would be no biblical reason for arriving at the date of 1914 as having any explicit significance spelled out in the scriptures.. with that being said, a much simpler approach (which appears to be used in the new jesus book) would be to just say that you think we have been witnessing the signs which jesus spoke about in matthew 24, mark 13, luke 21, and that world war i is just one of those many signs.. the problem with that approach, is that it is still relying on an interpretation of those chapters using the type/antitype method, which the governing body now says shouldn't be used without a clear biblical basis for doing so.

plus, if the claim is made that these signs (earthquakes, disease, famine, war) are getting worse in modern times than in any other time in history, the governing body would need to provide evidence of this claim.. so, in actuality, the most simple explanation is that all of those signs were fulfilled with the jewish temple being destroyed by the romans in 70 c.e.

FusionTheism

Isn't my Simplified Suggestion above much more simple and clear than the Society's current view which is very complicated and relies on the Type/Antitype Method? See for yourself. Here is their current view on the Great Tree Prophecy from Daniel 4, and how it points to the year 1914:

Insight Book (2015 Edition), Volume 1, Pages 133-135:

Dream vision of tree in Daniel chapter 4. Again in the book of Daniel we find a close parallel to Jesus’ use of the word “times” with regard to “the nations,” or Gentile powers. And again it is Nebuchadnezzar, the dethroner of David’s descendant Zedekiah, who was given another vision interpreted by Daniel as relating to divinely appointed kingship. The symbolic vision was of an immense tree; an angel from heaven commanded that it be chopped down. Its stump was then banded with iron and copper and had to stay that way among the grass of the field until “seven times” passed over it. “Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it . . . to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”—Da 4:10-17; see 4:16, ftn.

Related to “appointed times of the nations.” The vision definitely had a fulfillment in Nebuchadnezzar himself. (See Da 4:31-35.) Therefore, some view it as having direct prophetic application only to him and see in this vision merely the presentation of the eternal verity of ‘God’s supremacy over all other powers—human or supposedly divine.’ They acknowledge the application of that truth or principle beyond Nebuchadnezzar’s own case but do not see it as relating to any specific time period or divine schedule. Yet, an examination of the entire book of Daniel reveals that the element of time is everywhere prominent in the visions and prophecies it presents; and the world powers and events described in each such vision are shown, not as isolated or as occurring at random with the time element left ambiguous, but, rather, as fitting into a historical setting or time sequence. (Compare Da 2:36-45; 7:3-12, 17-26; 8:3-14, 20-25; 9:2, 24-27; 11:2-45; 12:7-13.) Additionally, the book repeatedly points toward the conclusion that forms the theme of its prophecies: the establishment of a universal and eternal Kingdom of God exercised through the rulership of the “son of man.” (Da 2:35, 44, 45; 4:17, 25, 32; 7:9-14, 18, 22, 27; 12:1) The book is also distinctive in the Hebrew Scriptures for its references to “the time of the end.”—Da 8:19; 11:35, 40; 12:4, 9.

In view of the above, it does not seem logical to evaluate the vision of the symbolic “tree” and its reference to “seven times” as having no other application than to the seven years of madness and subsequent recovery and return to power experienced by one Babylonian ruler, particularly so in the light of Jesus’ own prophetic reference to “the appointed times of the nations.” The time at which the vision was given: at the critical point in history when God, the Universal Sovereign, had allowed the very kingdom that he had established among his covenant people to be overthrown; the person to whom the vision was revealed: the very ruler who served as the divine instrument in such overthrow and who thereby became the recipient of world domination by divine permission, that is, without interference by any representative kingdom of Jehovah God; and the whole theme of the vision, namely: “that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind” (Da 4:17)—all of this gives strong reason for believing that the lengthy vision and its interpretation were included in the book of Daniel because of their revealing the duration of “the appointed times of the nations” and the time for the establishment of God’s Kingdom by his Christ.

The tree symbolism and God’s sovereignty. The symbolisms used in this prophetic vision are by no means unique. Trees are elsewhere used to represent ruling powers, including that of God’s typical kingdom at Jerusalem. (Compare Jg 9:6-15; Eze 17:1-24; 31:2-18.) A stump’s being caused to sprout and the symbol of “a twig” or “sprout” are found a number of times as representing the renewal of rulership in a certain stock or line, particularly in the Messianic prophecies. (Isa 10:33–11:10; 53:2-7; Jer 23:5; Eze 17:22-24; Zec 6:12, 13; compare Job 14:7-9.) Jesus spoke of himself as both “the root and the offspring of David.”—Re 5:5; 22:16.

The fact is evident that the key point of the vision is Jehovah God’s exercise of irresistible sovereignty in “the kingdom of mankind,” and this provides the guide to the full meaning of the vision. The tree is shown to have an application to Nebuchadnezzar, who at that point in history was the head of the dominant World Power, Babylon. Yet, prior to Nebuchadnezzar’s conquest of Jerusalem, the typical kingdom of God ruling out of that city was the agency by which Jehovah expressed his rightful sovereignty toward the earth. It thus constituted a divine block or impediment for Nebuchadnezzar in attaining his goal of world domination. By allowing that typical kingdom at Jerusalem to be overthrown, Jehovah permitted his own visible expression of sovereignty through the Davidic dynasty of kings to be cut down. The expression and exercise of world domination in “the kingdom of mankind,” unhindered by any representative kingdom of God, now passed into the hands of the Gentile nations. (La 1:5; 2:2, 16, 17) In the light of these facts “the tree” is seen to represent, beyond and above its application to Nebuchadnezzar, world sovereignty or domination by God’s arrangement.

Renewal of world domination. God, however, here makes clear that he has not forever delivered up such world domination to the Gentile powers. The vision shows that God’s self-restraint (represented by the bands of iron and of copper around the stump of the tree) would continue until “seven times pass over it.” (Da 4:16, 23, 25) Then, since “the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind,” God would give world domination “to the one whom he wants to.” (Da 4:17) The prophetic book of Daniel itself shows that one to be the “son of man” to whom are given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Da 7:13, 14) Jesus’ own prophecy, in which the reference to “the appointed times of the nations” occurs, points definitely toward Christ Jesus’ exercise of such world domination as God’s chosen King, the heir of the Davidic dynasty. (Mt 24:30, 31; Lu 21:27-31, 36) Thus, the symbolic stump, representing God’s retention of the sovereign right to exercise world domination in “the kingdom of mankind,” was due to sprout again in his Son’s Kingdom.—Ps 89:27, 35-37.

Seven Symbolic Times. In Nebuchadnezzar’s personal experience of the vision’s fulfillment the “seven times” were evidently seven years, during which he became mad, with symptoms like those of lycanthropy, abandoning his throne to eat grass like a beast in the field. (Da 4:31-36) Notably, the Biblical description of the exercise of world domination by the Gentile powers is presented through the figure of beasts in opposition to the holy people of God and their “Prince of princes.” (Compare Da 7:2-8, 12, 17-26; 8:3-12, 20-25; Re 11:7; 13:1-11; 17:7-14.) Concerning the word “times” (from Aramaic ʽid·danʹ), as used in Daniel’s prophecy, lexicographers show it here to mean “years.” (See Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L. Koehler and W. Baumgartner, Leiden, 1958, p. 1106; A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, 1980, p. 1105; Lexicon Linguae Aramaicae Veteris Testamenti, edited by E. Vogt, Rome, 1971, p. 124.) The duration of a year as so used is indicated to be 360 days, inasmuch as three and a half times are shown to equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” at Revelation 12:6, 14. (Compare also Re 11:2, 3.) “Seven times,” according to this count, would equal 2,520 days. That a specific number of days may be used in the Bible record to represent prophetically an equivalent number of years can be seen by reading the accounts at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. Only by applying the formula there expressed of “a day for a year” to the “seven times” of this prophecy can the vision of Daniel chapter 4 have significant fulfillment beyond the day of now extinct Nebuchadnezzar, as the evidence thus far presented gives reason to expect. They therefore represent 2,520 years.

It is a historical fact worth noting that, on the basis of the points and evidence above presented, the March 1880 edition of the Watch Tower magazine identified the year 1914 as the time for the close of “the appointed times of the nations” (and the end of the lease of power granted the Gentile rulers). This was some 34 years before the arrival of that year and the momentous events it initiated. In the August 30, 1914, edition of The World, a leading New York newspaper at that time, a feature article in the paper’s Sunday magazine section commented on this as follows: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”
The events that took place from and after the year 1914 C.E. are well-known history to all, beginning with the great war that erupted, the first world war in mankind’s history and the first to be fought over the issue, not of the domination of Europe alone, nor of Africa, nor of Asia, but of the domination of the world.—Lu 21:7-24, 29-33; Re 11:15-18

-----------------------------------------

Bible Teach Book (2014 Edition), Pages 216-218:

What evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.

How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. . . . It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) “The one who has the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw a tree of enormous height that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “Let seven times pass over it.”—Daniel 4:10-16.

In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?

Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “1,260 days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.*—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.