Posts by neverendingjourney

84

One thing about this site that bothers me

by keyser soze in

jw
friends

the constant references to 'window washers' as something derogatory.. i understand the context of it-that most jws are uneducated, and unqualified to do much more.

but sometimes the references seem snobbish, almost mean-spirited.

one poster, on another thread, essentially referred to window washers as 'losers'.

neverendingjourney

I don't have anything against blue-collar workers. I was one for many years. My parents have been blue-collar workers their entire lives. And it's true that the attacks are often personal in nature. There are a lot of talented witnesses who never fully capitalized on their talents due to terrible advice given by WT leadership.

However, the problem is with the Watchtower sending these men to address issues that should be addressed by professionals. You wouldn't call a psychiatrist to unclog your toilet. Why would you send a plumber to counsel the mentally ill?

There was a teenager at our hall who was clearly suffering from severe mental problems. I remember one of the elders talking about how he had gone to counsel the family because the boy was hearing voices telling him to kill his mother. They prayed with the family and encouraged them to throw away any possessions that might be connected to spiritism. The elder was a welder.

This is a real concern and it can't be addressed without making specific reference to the men being completely unqualified.

35

Watchtower Really Does Totally Take The Position of Jesus

by OnTheWayOut in

watchtower has said that jesus is not the mediator of anyone but for the anointed.

then they tell you that they are jehovah's organization and that the flock should obey them.. basically, the watchtower corp. and it's governing body is taking the place of jesus as the mediator for people.

christianity, even by it's name, focuses on making jesus known.

neverendingjourney

There is a very old doctrine called the Mystery Doctrine, which according to some, the GB still believes, although they haven't printed anything on it for decades. According to this doctrine, the anointed are "the Christ." Under this view, the anointed (who used to be the FDS) were very much the same thing as Jesus himself.

This thread from Terry is worth re-visiting:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/278783/1/APRIL3d-MEMORIAL-3d-Time-to-review-the-Mystery-Doctrine-secrets#.U3Tkh9JdVj8

Regardless of whether or not this is still official doctrine, at a minimum you get a flavor for why people often get the general feeling you describe.

Here's an excerpt from Terry's thread:

Writing in his book, "Apocalypse Delayed" Penton tells us:

"The Mystery, as understood by Pastor C.T. Russell, meant not only had Jesus offered himself as a ransom sacrifice for mankind, but the body of Christ, the 144,000 members of his church also participated in the ransoming and atoning work" [pg 40]

He went on to say :

"Pastor Russell divined the mediator for the New Covenant was "the Christ" and that expression meant the 144,000 actually participated in Christ's sacrifice for the world" [pg 187 of "Apocalypse Delayed"]

Going back to Russell’s day, the original idea was a distinction between "Christ," who is Jesus, and "the Christ," which is composed of Head (Jesus) and Body (all spirit-begotten Christians).

In Rutherford's day, those who partake of the bread and wine belong to "the Christ" and who share in the glory of Christ (the mystery doctrine).

34

Hello- new here

by Kikura in

jw
friends

been lurking for a while on here and thought i'd jump in.

a great deal of many thoughtful posts on here but have to say am a bit turned off with the 'rabid apostate' ones!.

my history- was raised in a divided household, mum converted to jw when pregnant with me back in 1970, dad was never jw but was supportive of taking us to meetings, assemblies etc.

neverendingjourney

A great deal of many thoughtful posts on here but have to say am a bit turned off with the 'rabid apostate' ones!

It's the internet. You're gonna have people saying outlandish things regardless of whether it's a forum on religion, sports, gardening or some other topic. As a reference, just take a look at the comments page on your typical online news story.

That being said, I understand the frustration. But there are a lot of incredibly bright and insightful people on here as well. I've learned a lot from this site, even if it's a little extra work sifting through some of the more hysterical topics and other subjects that simply don't interest me.

Welcome aboard. Good luck on your journey.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

True it's not an entirely new way of doing things.

I don't disagree. Like I've said, the Watchtower is clearly moving in the direction of being more vocal about donations. That's been the trend for as far back as I can remember. This newest measure is clearly a significant development in that process and deserves attention being called to it. If for nothing else, because it betrays the original view regarding contributions that the religion was founded on.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

Really? When? (not saying you're wrong Apognophos, just curious)

I know you didn't direct this question at me, but I remember as far back as 20 years ago slips were being passed around in my hall for the local assembly hall project. It was the same drill. Write down how much you think you can contribute. The slips would be passed down the rows and an attendant would walk by to pick up the slips. It was supposed to be anonymous and you were instructed not to write your name on it. The justification for this was that HQ needed this info for budgeting purposes.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

What Apognophos said.

Nobody is obliged to donate anything yet. There is a definite shift in emphasis but so far there is anonymity and no method of tracing individuals giving.

To Cofty and Apognophos' points, there's a lot there already to criticize without the need for overstatements. Nobody's denying that there's been a shift in how donations are being emphasized.

A tithing arrangement is on one end of the spectrum. Never mentioning money at all is on the other end. This new arrangement is somewhere in between, but a shift in degrees on that spectrum is not the same as moving all the way down to the extreme end of it.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

I can see your point about how the pedantic WBTS may seek to distinguish this arrangement from tithing based on the percentage amount.

It's not the WTBTS or your ardent Witnesses I really have in mind. You can't reason with them anyhow.

I've been away from this religion for so many years now that I don't come on here very often anymore. When I have, I've seen repeated remarks about tithing and I thought I'd point out that from an outsider's perspective this new arrangement of theirs doesn't match up with what the common understanding of that word is.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

Many Christians support their churches and pastors with monetary contributions of one sort or another. Frequently these monetary contributions are called tithes whether or not they actually represent ten percent of anything.

The problem with this definition is that it's so broad that any monetary contribution is a tithe. If that's the case, the Witnesses are now and have always been tithing.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

I've don't have any experience with using the words "tithe" or "tithing" where it meant anything other than compulsory donations of 10 percent of your income. Within Mormonism tithing means 10 percent of your income. Every time I had this discussion (mostly door-to-door) with people of assorted Pentecostal churches they always understood it to mean 10 percent. That doesn't mean the term doesn't have flexibility, but I've never it encountered it.

But what would you call it?

That's a fair question and one that I haven't given great thought to, to be honest. It seems like this is more akin to passing around a collection plate. They're becoming more aggressive in putting the issue out in front of the members. They're taking steps to have members establish a set amount of money on a periodic basis.

48

Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?

by neverendingjourney in

at the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.

it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.

i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.

neverendingjourney

At the risk of being shouted down, I thought I'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church. It comes from the Old English word teogotha meaning tenth. I've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the Watchtower.

While I'm all in favor of pointing out the Watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters. If you claim they've established tithing and they've done nothing of the sort, you instantly lose credibility.