Posts by comment

12

The Dumb and Dumber Organization

by metatron in

jw
friends

when does the 'dumbth' in this organization hit bottom?.

anybody remember when questions were read aloud before the.

paragraph, during the watchtower study?.

comment

What's this about Ministry School talks being replaced by reading aloud? I haven't heard about this development.

Would that apply to all MS talks, including the instruction talk and Bible highlights, or just 2, 3 and 4?

comment

11

You Know, and then the end will come

by joelbear in

jw
friends

matthew 24:14. jesus says, this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth, for a witness, and then the end will come.. this work only done by jehovah's witnesses for about 125 years approximately.

they have 6 million preachers concentrated in mostly 20 countries.. lets say they have preached it in all of north america, which is still debatable since there are still a large segment of people who have no really clear idea of what witnesses believe "the good news" is.. even so, just in china and india there are 2 billion human beings who have probably never been preached to even once.

add bangladesh, iran, iraq, saudi arabia, etc and you have at least another billion with the population in these hard to reach countries continuously growing.. how can the end come before jesus's prophecy comes true.

comment

The Society's reasoning on these points is so flawed.

"Just imagine, brothers, if Jehovah had brought the end 20 years ago, millions would never have had the opportunity to come into the truth and gain everlasting life!"

And MANY MILLIONS MORE would not have been doomed to death, of course. But let's not mention that.

As for "we don't actually have to talk to everyone in order for the preaching commission to be fulfilled," that falls down on two counts.

First, who would accept the notion that they'd been adequately informed about ANY subject just by seeing somebody in a suit walk by?

You go shopping for a TV at an electronics store and see the salesman walking by. "Oh good, now I've got all the information about buying a TV that I could need. Whether I do or don't buy a TV, I have to shoulder the full responsibility myself because I SAW the guy." RIGHT!!!

Second, there are millions of people worldwide who have never seen and will never in the near future see a Witness out in service.

comment

133

MAJOR UN/WTS/NGO NEWS - WTS IS GONE

by hawkaw in

as of 11:45 this morning (i had a telphone call this morning with the refernce department person named holly at 212-963-7234), i can tell you that the watchtower has disassociated itself from the united nations dpi!!!!!!.

the dpi is now taking them off the list.

the dpi requested the list removal to be done this morning!!!!!.

comment

Here is the page that describes the responsibilities of UN NGOs:

http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/brochure.htm

And here is the list of UN NGOs that (at least until it's taken off) includes the Watchtower Society:

http://www.un.org/MoreInfo/ngolink/ngodir/NGODirAlph/alphabet.htm

comment

10

Interesting point about the WT-UN thing

by comment in

jw
friends

it's easy to document that there have been dozens of derogatory statements about the un in watchtower publications in the years since the society gained ngo status.. we already know that the brothers were not informed about this status.

and in the early 1990's, it would have been considerably harder for the brothers to find out.

why would any of them even think to visit or phone the un and ask, "is the watchtower society in any way associated with your organization?".

comment

It's easy to document that there have been dozens of derogatory statements about the UN in Watchtower publications in the years since the Society gained NGO status.

We already know that the brothers were not informed about this status. And in the early 1990's, it would have been considerably harder for the brothers to find out. Why would any of them even think to visit or phone the UN and ask, "Is the Watchtower Society in any way associated with your organization?"

As long as the Society maintained a low profile with the UN--which they appear to have done--it's possible that their status could have continued undetected for many years to come.

HOWEVER, the UN DPI must be quite upset with its own failure to thoroughly investigate the Watchtower's views on the UN, which must be at least embarrassing if not completely intolerable to them. They may be considerably more upset than we know--not just bemused.

Presumably any literature that was presented to the UN during the application process involved things like nice Awake! magazines on the environment and women's rights, with nothing more than a discreet "Soon God will cleanse the earth of wickedness and people everywhere will no longer suffer under the tyranny of ______."

Still, the Society publishes so much stuff that it's *remarkable* that not once in the last ten years (until now) did anyone working for the UN thumb through a "hard-hitting" Watchtower article that referred to the "disgusting thing" and the "scarlet-colored wild beast." Especially considering both organizations are headquartered in New York!

I think it's remarkable even though the Society probably occupies very little of the UN DPI's thoughts on a normal day.

Now we just have to wait and see if the Society will a) be disfellowshipped b) disassociate itself c) be reproved and put on probation to demonstrate "works befitting repentance" d) suffer no consequences at all.

And of course, we'll see how they justify their choice in association to both Witnesses and the public at large.

comment

1

Allow No Place for the Watchtower Society!

by comment in

jw
friends

for years, i have really hated the march 15, 1986 watchtower article entitled "allow no place for the devil!

" for its self-righteous dismissal of the possibility that any criticism of the society could be valid.

so i decided to rewrite it and turn some of the society's arrogant ad hominem reasoning around on itself.

comment

bttt for those who missed it this weekend...

1

Allow No Place for the Watchtower Society!

by comment in

jw
friends

for years, i have really hated the march 15, 1986 watchtower article entitled "allow no place for the devil!

" for its self-righteous dismissal of the possibility that any criticism of the society could be valid.

so i decided to rewrite it and turn some of the society's arrogant ad hominem reasoning around on itself.

comment

For years, I have really hated the March 15, 1986 Watchtower article entitled "Allow No Place for the Devil!" for its self-righteous dismissal of the possibility that any criticism of the Society could be valid. So I decided to rewrite it and turn some of the Society's arrogant ad hominem reasoning around on itself. Make sure you underline your personal copy! ;)

ALLOW NO PLACE FOR THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY!

“Let the sun not set with you in a provoked state, neither allow place for the Watchtower Society.”

A VICIOUS wild beast is on the prowl. He has an insatiable desire to devour regular people living their lives. Here's some good advice: “Keep your senses, be watchful. Your adversary, the Watchtower Society, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. But take your stand against him, solid in your grip on reality. After you have suffered a little while, you'll hopefully get over it.”

2 We can be sure that the Watchtower Society and its agents, all human, stand ready to exploit any gnawing doubt, any serious flaw of personality, any negligence on our part to keep a grip on reality. But you can be pretty sure that the Watchtower Society will not devour us if we take a firm stand against it. For instance, no one falls victim to this religion because it just could not be avoided, that is, unless you were born into it. No one is predestined to abandon common sense. Motives of the heart are involved. People become Jehovah's Witnesses either because they were having a tough time in their lives or because they thought they could get something out of it. For instance, Judas Iscariot had a good heart when called as one of Jesus’ 12 apostles, but he just couldn't resist invoking the donation arrangement.

3 A person becomes a Jehovah's Witness because he lets his chosen associates and surroundings mold his thinking and determine the direction of his will. Paul spoke of some who were ‘once enlightened, had tasted the gift of freedom, but had fallen away.’ If we are not continually on guard, the Watchtower Society can by its sly propaganda make our hearts receptive to religious thinking. But how does the Watchtower Society, in effect, set a person up as a likely casualty, a victim of the door-to-door work?

4 Common attitudes that the Watchtower Society looks for are bitterness, resentment, and faultfinding. Such feelings can grow so strong that there is very little room left for love and appreciation. Perhaps some unresolved problem festers, causing a person to feel angry and justified in staying away from family members, acquaintances and workmates. By remaining provoked for an extended period of time, he ‘allows place for the Watchtower Society.’ The disturbed individual sees only his brother’s human weaknesses, rather than forgiving him, and he uses the trying circumstances as an excuse to justify wiping everyone else out at Armageddon. While in this state of mind, if someone comes along and suggests that the world at large is godless or too liberal, or even wrong in certain vital teachings, the embittered person's heart may be receptive to such unfounded claims. How necessary it is, then, to avoid letting bitterness and resentment build up! Do not let the sun set on your anger. Instead, let love have its full expression in your life.

5 What other conditions of heart and mind is the Watchtower Society looking for? Well, there are pride, a feeling of self-importance, resentment at not getting the prominence one feels one should have. These are all pitfalls used by the Watchtower Society. If you are counseled or even reproved for some practice or attitude at work or in your family, this, too, may prove to be an ideal time for the Watchtower Society to prompt you to ask yourself if you should just give up on living your regular life. So keep humble. Be content to conduct yourself as “a lesser one.” Do not let pride or a feeling of self-importance ever cause you to think you should be one of six million people to survive the destruction of six billion by God.

6 Impatience is another thing looked for by the Watchtower Society. We may sometimes feel that changes should be made; we want the world to be perfect. ‘This problem must be cleared up now. I’ve got to have the answer to this spiritual conundrum right now, or I’m not going any further. Figuring out the secret of the universe has been “right around the corner” for me for years now. I’m tired of waiting.’ Be assured that the Watchtower Society is ready to sow seeds of doubt and revolt in such fields of impatience. Endurance and faith are needed.

7 James said: “Let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything. So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, ask somebody other than God, because he doesn't have a lot to say. But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is probably not going to get too far. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah, because as already noted, you need to take responsibility for your own life.” Do not let the Watchtower Society make you a candidate for religious fanaticism because you have become demandingly impatient, doubtful about the promises of your significant other and employer! Be patient, be thankful. Just enjoy life.

8 What else does the Watchtower Society use in trying to turn us away? Has it not always tried to stir up rebellion, to cause regular people to totally lose faith in all institutions other than itself? ‘Those haughty worldly intellectuals just do not understand. They are too critical, too demanding,’ some may say. A person may go further and claim that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other irresponsible advocates of the Society respect freedom of conscience and the individual’s right to interpret the Scriptures. But remember Joseph’s humble words: “Do not interpretations belong to people who remember how to think for themselves?” And it's far from clear that Jesus foretold that in these final days an organization of anointed ones, “the faithful and discreet slave,” would be entrusted with providing spiritual food at the proper time. Beware of those who try to put forward their own dogmatic opinions. Also beware of those who want to impose "theocratic" restraints, or who alternatively promise freedom, claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses are making personal decisions about this, that and the other! Peter said of false teachers: “While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by elderly gentlemen who have lived most of their lives in Brooklyn office buildings.”

9 What is often the motive of those who praise the Society or those taking the lead? Is it not often that some application of Scripture benefits them personally? Rather than just leaving well enough alone, they want everybody else to change. Let us illustrate this with a few examples:

10 A male Jehovah's Witness chooses some clothing or grooming style that is not prevalent in the Midwestern United States. The elders feel that he is not a good example and do not give him certain assignments, such as appearing on the platform to tell others how they should live their lives. He becomes resentful and correctly points out that the elders are trying to take away his freedom. What is behind such reasoning? Is it not usually pride, an independent attitude and the rather normal desire to not be a cookie-cutter image of 1950's manhood? While this seemingly is a small thing, a person who does not reason in that way could “allow place for the Watchtower Society.” Dress comfortably, wash your clothes and spend a little extra if you prefer to be fashionable. We should want to do all things for the betterment of human society and hopefully please ourselves along the way.

11 Let us take another example. Frequently you hear the Watchtower Society argue that the Scriptural prohibition against eating blood really applies to transfusions. But what is behind that reasoning? Is it fear—fear of possibly losing control over its members? Are its hopes of winning court cases over medical mismanagement fading? The vast majority of people do not obsess over their narrow interpretation of "God’s law" or look for ways to make it apply to situations that were never anticipated in Bible times. Abstaining from blood to nourish the body is a good idea, particularly if you have some nice restaurants nearby.

12 Some who have a realistic attitude point out that "Jehovah’s organization" is too strict about cutting off social contacts with disfellowshipped persons. But why do these critics feel that way? Do they have a close family tie or loyalty to a friend that they are putting ahead of loyalty to the Watchtower Society's standards and requirements, which were not so strict in the past and loosened up in the 1970's before hardening again in 1981? Well, good for the critics! Consider, too, that continuing to accord social fellowship to an expelled person, particularly a relative, may lead the erring one to conclude that his course is not so serious, and this to his long-term benefit! However, withholding normal human contact may make him become depressed, worthless and suicidal. "Jehovah’s way" is a ridiculous caricature of "tough love," and it serves for the protection of the Watchtower Society's flimsy doctrinal structure and tight grip on its members.

13 Still another person may claim that the Scriptures do not support public preaching from house to house. But is this because he already dislikes this important work and is looking for an excuse to abstain? Well, it might be. Or maybe he actually thinks the Scriptures don't support it. Love of God and neighbor should motivate us to see that banging on doors, by and large, is not the best way to convince people of anything. Again, common sense is needed. The apostle Paul spoke of his own endurance in ‘thoroughly bearing witness to Jews and Greeks’ as he taught publicly and from house to house. Rather than get too excited about this, should we not realize that Paul lived two thousand years in a completely different culture? Look at the thousands who have been gathered into the “one flock” mostly because they were born into it or because they live in a Third World country and lack Internet access. And do not forget the fine benefits we receive in just going about our day-to-day lives and pursuing our personal goals instead of handing out literature published by the Watchtower Society.

14 Finally, we might consider what the Society has published in the past on chronology. People who bother to research the matter point out that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents note that the Society set a whole bunch of dates, but nothing happened. They are correct. So who cares what their motive is? Who cares whether they are "encouraging wakefulness on the part of God’s people" or trying to justify themselves for doing something different with their lives? More importantly, what will you do if you hear such criticism? If a person is gobbling up anecdotal evidence and numerical jiggery-pokery to convince himself we are living in “the last days” of this system, or perhaps is using abstract notions of justice to prop up the idea that God actually could cause the death of so many millions of people during the “great tribulation,” then this individual already has prepared his heart to listen to the Watchtower Society.

15 The Watchtower Society has changed dozens of doctrines in the 130-odd years of its existence. Because of its eagerness to keep its membership riled up, it has predicted the imminent arrival of the new system several times, and just doesn't seem to learn. Moreover, the Society's frequent need to revise its understanding drastically gives you a pretty good idea of whether or not it's composed of false prophets. How sensible to take the view that teaching flip-flopping back and forth call into question the whole body of truth! The evidence is far from clear that Jehovah has used and is continuing to use one organization with “the faithful and discreet slave” taking the lead. Hence, don't fall into blind-alley reasoning like Peter, who said: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."

16 In the so-called "spiritual paradise," among Jehovah’s Witnesses, we can find some good things and a bunch of negatives that you get in a lot of religions. By its bad fruits, the Watchtower Society is exposed for what it really is. Jesus indicated that the good trees would be identified by their fine fruits. And that's a good thought from Jesus! Amazing increases in the quality of life are taking place in many countries. Scientists, artists, blue-collar workers and many others are living proof that most people are trying to live their lives the best way they can.

17 Because they think they are taught by God, Jehovah’s Witnesses fall into the trap of believing they have the one and only way to salvation. Instead, they have their own set of superstitions. And they do not completely abide by what they teach about sexual immorality, drunkenness, stealing, idolatry, racial prejudice, and other worldly pursuits and practices. They like to boast about how they are the only ones obeying the command to preach the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom. But their emphasis on door-knocking leads them to neglect other important aspects of life.

18 "Jehovah’s truth" may sound beautiful and satisfying, especially the first time you hear about it. So be careful. Resolve in your heart that you will never touch the poison that the Watchtower Society wants you to sip. However, if you want to research it a bit and figure out all the problems with the doctrines, go right ahead. Heed the wise advice of friends, family and former Jehovah's Witnesses to avoid those who would deceive you, mislead you, turn you aside into the ways of religious servitude. If we love life with our whole heart, soul, and mind, while loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, we will leave no room for penetration by fanaticism. We will not “allow place for the Watchtower Society” and will look elsewhere. We will not ‘be quickly shaken from our reason’ by some counterfeit teaching.

19 Let us always appreciate our privilege of being alive. We all have people who are important to us in our lives. So maintain close association with them, knowing that they are what counts. May we continue to have the same joy that we had when we were kids and do our best and be nice to other people. As some smart guy so aptly said: “Let no man deprive you of just getting on with your life."

comment

13

The problem with the Guardian article re WT-UN

by comment in

jw
friends

comment

I'm not sure everyone grasped my point.

I wasn't saying the article wasn't basically a good article.

It's just that it could be EVEN BETTER if there was nothing in there, at least doctrinally, that would make Witnesses discount it.

For instance, the journalist may use the term "sect" or "cult." That's one thing. But don't say something like "non-Witnesses are condemned to burn in hell." For Witnesses, those kinds of points are a BIG DEAL. And if you remember back to when you were a Witness, you'll remember that they were a BIG DEAL to you too.

That's all.

comment

2

Is there Un meeting re: WT on 10/9 ?

by Patriot in

hello folks.

i don't have too much time to look through all the posts regarding the ngo/dpi and the wtbts but i was told by a friend and would like to confirm that the un is having a meeting about all this tomorrow and that it is open to the public.. is there any truth to this?

if so i'll take the day off and go.. mav.-

comment

Has anybody been able to confirm about this?

Could someone who's in a position to call the UN check it out?

comment

8

Getting U.N. scandal to the press

by detective in

jw
friends

has anyone attempted to contact the press about the united nations scandal?

as i've mentioned on an earlier thread, i am not in a position to notify the press myself but would like to contribute some information for those of you who might be interested in contacting the press.

here are some press sources for the boston area:.

comment

The Associated Press may be coming out with something on this in the near future.

comment